Proofreading Service - Pain in the English
Proofreading Service - Pain in the English

Your Pain Is Our Pleasure

24-Hour Proofreading Service—We proofread your Google Docs or Microsoft Word files. We hate grammatical errors with passion. Learn More

Proofreading Service - Pain in the English
Proofreading Service - Pain in the English

Your Pain Is Our Pleasure

24-Hour Proofreading Service—We proofread your Google Docs or Microsoft Word files. We hate grammatical errors with passion. Learn More

“Anglish”

Has anyone come across “Anglish”? Anglish or Saxon is described as “...a form of English linguistic purism, which favours words of native (Germanic) origin over those of foreign (mainly Romance and Greek) origin.”

Does anybody have an opinion or thoughts on “Anglish”...

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Comments

@jayles:

Me thinks it not so grim. Although....

Well, think about the Anglo-Saxon and Norman invasions, and weigh it against today's immigrant invasion. Self-serving Politics is at the root of each with a bit of cultural relativism, a knowledge poor folk, and a brainwashed folk that are told by the "elites" everywhere that their culture is over bearing and shameful (sometimes evil), and nothing to be proud of.

But, the tide can turn...

Ængelfolc May-23-2011

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@ addyatg
easy really, there's your oversetting into anglish, almost no loanwords

The now-time Whig witship and lawlays and the loosenouts to those lawlays are all about bringaboutliness. Whigs go-to each issue on its own and using our Whig witship we can tackle each issue in a deedsound way.
Our mindfasten is not on thoughtlore, its on what is most bringaboutsome. We have our lawlays which we hold strong to. Where we are deedsound is in the loosenouts to those lawlays. We mindfasten on what we like, or what you like but what works best and the most bringaboutly loosenouts. Whigs believe that this is what folkly thaneing is all about.
Deedsound, evenweighty and unthoughtlorely go-to to folkly lawling puts the American folks first.
Loosenouts-minded, waylorely yet bendsome in go-to towards ‘centrist’ lawling putforths.
Greater landflok partaking in the shaping of folkly lawling. Highly intold citizens is the new normal.
Mindfasten on core issues that bestir all Americans as a whole, not only one group or a few sundersome careabout thoughtlings.
Freedom of political thought and deeding, not stuck on thoughtlore.
Yorelorely political truths are insteadened by new truths and realities as landfolks take part without beforely bias using only now-time Whig and groundfast Landlawsome guidelines.
Therefore the Whigs are not a eldways political party, nor do we have an eldways party upheldness. We believe that eldways loosenouts will bide on as unbringaboutsome.
Whigs live out unoffhanging thought, stress landfolk partaking, want the lessening of lobby careabouts, a lookin of electoral deedways, all to ensure a healthy Republic .
The Whig witship is a witship that stresses deedway, and seeks to sharpen or build again the deedwaylores of our aspellings.
Please look through the following offcuts to find out more about the Whig witship and Whig lawlays.

wlyan138 May-25-2011

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ferthfrith: nicely done though now I don't understand it.
Perhaps if one took out all the Germanic words instead it would be easier?
Eg: La Modern Whig philosophy et principles et la solutions a cestui principles tout concern effectiveness.
Just as mumbo in a different way.

BTW off the cuff I though "political" came from the Greek "polis" meaning er,,,,, a city??

jayles May-25-2011

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On the other main (ie hand) to teach "deterioration" I began with "worse" -> worsen -> worsening. There really are some words we need to loose.

In the last few days I have specifically taught "unco-operative", "disrespectful" and "sullen". En passant I thought "spy" was from latin but I see it those damn Franks throwing a spanner in the works.
so I can use them when dealing with one particular student. Ah the power of words.
Difficult to distinguish between "sullen' and 'sulky" although "sullen" seems to better describe behavior than personality. Couldn't come up with any real english words for
"unco-operative" or "disrespectful" - open to real-world suggestions.
We test students every week in some way. So we have spreadsheets headed:
"Continuous assessment actuals" - I've made mine "Ongoing assessment actuals"
but balk at "Ongoing rating outcomes". Just sounds like someone rating TV shows.

jayles May-25-2011

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or something to do with naval ratings...

jayles May-25-2011

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Also: I wrote this:

"Yes indeed hindsight gives us wisdom,
but with wisdom comes age
and with age comes agues
and in the end death itself
is the end
of wisdom."

Now if we use "ailments' instead of "agues" it just destroys it, makes it sound so banal. So sometimes we need to keep nice (short) borrowed words. Angliscizing everything mindlessly is not always the answer.

jayles May-25-2011

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@jayles: anglish is hypothetical, it is what-ifly, it often makes wordmeaning clearer than foreing words, but other times wordmeaning cannot as easily be drawn off from the word. Yet what these words: put-forth, lawling, deedway, and so on, all have over foreign words is that they have an inner framework that draws an image to the english speaker's mind. that is not to say that upon first seeing these words, they will be understood, but the same goes, even more so for foreing words. However these anglish words are very powerful in their ability to draw forth image in the mind, they have almost a metaphorical richness that goes far beyond the raw symbolism of foreing wordstock. Unoffhanging and dependent both draw forth the thought of something needing something else. But only unoffhanging draws forth the mindimage of something hanging off of somrthing else, thereby showing dependecy or offhangingness.
Of course jayles, we are not saying that all anglish words would be readily understood, though some indeed would be. What we are saying is that anglish words are richer, truer, and not the cold, raw, frameworkless things that foreign words are. whether this upside of anglish warrants these words being taken up into nowtime english is yours to settle on. I myself will work to see them do so.

wlyan138 May-25-2011

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what anglish will always be, if nothing else, is the schoolsome follow-after (academic pursuit) of english's germanic side for the sheer glee of doing so, whether or not the masses take on anglish.

wlyan138 May-25-2011

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also jayles, a heavily foreign-worded text like the one i overset will always seem awkward in anglish, forwhy of the sheer number of words needing oversetting. But in everyday speech, slipping an anglish word into our talkthroughs (coversations) here and there will not seem as odd, and context will usually help one understand the meaning anyway. In this way, slowly setting in anglish words, not all at once, but bitmeal, into english, do i beleive emglish can gain back at least some of its germanicness

wlyan138 May-25-2011

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@jayles: "Now if we use "ailments' instead of "agues" it just destroys it..."

Well, 'ague' firstly means "fever, shivering (mainly from malaria)" and secondly, "sickness". The word ague is a shortening of the Mid.Fr 'fievre ague' (acute fever)

Ængelfolc May-27-2011

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"Yes indeed hindsight gives us wisdom,
but with wisdom comes age
and with age comes (ailing)
and in the end death itself
is the end
of wisdom."

Ængelfolc May-27-2011

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@jayles: You've found another Frankish word with a little Latin flavor!

Banal > ban (from from Frankish *ban. OHG bannan, pannen & OE bannan is a cognate. ON banna, from P.Gmc. *bannanan) + al (from L. -alis, suffix to make adj.'s and nouns meaning "a kind of" or "like"; first used only with Latin loanwords, but now is fully Anglicized and used with Germanic verbs, too, like bestowal, betrothal.)

Ængelfolc May-27-2011

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"spanner" >> span (O.E. spann/ spannan, P.Gmc.*spannō/*spannanan) + er (from O.E. -ware, P.Gmc. *-warioz)

Ængelfolc May-27-2011

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"Yes indeed hindsight gives us wisdom,
but with wisdom comes age
and with age comes (woe)
and in the end death itself
is the end
of wisdom."


"Yes indeed hindsight gives us wisdom,
but with wisdom comes age
and with age comes (throe(s))
and in the end death itself
is the end
of wisdom."

"Yes indeed hindsight gives us wisdom,
but with wisdom comes age
and with age comes (want)
and in the end death itself
is the end
of wisdom."

Ængelfolc May-27-2011

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@jayles: "We test students every week in some way. So we have spreadsheets headed:
"Continuous assessment actuals" - I've made mine "Ongoing assessment actuals"
but balk at "Ongoing rating outcomes"."

Why not just say "Ongoing assessment outcomes". 2 out of 3 isn't bad. It pretty well fits the ratio of home-to-borrowed words in English anyway.

Ængelfolc May-27-2011

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"schoolsome follow-after (academic pursuit)"

This can be said much better so as to be better understood in today's (not 'nowtimes') English.

One would better understand the following to mean "academic pursuit": 1) book-learned, bookish, learning past-time 2) bookish, learned, book-learned undertaking 3) bookish, learned work

No need to make any new words until all of the words in today's wordbook are back in full use.

My 2 Marks.

Ængelfolc May-27-2011

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Ængelfolc : yes I agree and "ongoing assessment outcomes" actually sounds quite normal. I also liked "with age comes ailing". I think I only chose "ague" for the alliteration, but "ailing' is actually better.
I think I was grandstanding a bit anyway.
So you accept that Anglish is just a "bookish pastime", eh?

jayles May-27-2011

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Ængelfolc: As a matter of curiosity, why is it that we have the "ish" ending on punish, distinguish, embellish, finish, abolish, etc (polish?) when in modern french there is no such ending. Is this an english corruption or some Norman dialect ending?

jayles May-27-2011

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@jayles: "So you accept that Anglish is just a "bookish pastime", eh?"

No, but thank you for using my Anglicism. As I wrote earlier on, I am not so much on board with "Anglish", but Ænglisc. They are like night and day.

The ending "-ish" is normally a Germanic ending (cognate with Old English -isc, O.H.G. -isc, German -isch, ON -iskr, Gothic -isks, also whence French -esque. The French is from Italian -esco, which is from Gothic and/or Lombardic).

The words you listed have another kind of -ish. It is in truth an Old French ending that is from borrowed Latin i-stem verbs (verbs with infinitives in -ir). The suffix is actually -iss not -ish. The pronunciation was influenced by the Germanic, so yes, an English corruption of the Latin. So...

punish

Ængelfolc May-27-2011

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@jayles: "Couldn't come up with any real english words for "unco-operative" or "disrespectful" - open to real-world suggestions."

disrespectful (insulting) = cheeky, fresh, churlish, boorish, uncouth, wise guy, wisenheimer, or *

*smart-alec(k): (Americanism) An impudent or obnoxiously self-assertive individual, a wise guy, as in New teachers often have a hard time coping with the smart alecks in their classes. This expression, dating from the mid-1800s, probably alluded to a person of this description who was named Alec or Alexander, but his identity has been lost.

SOURCE: "smart aleck." The American Heritage® Dictionary of Idioms by Christine Ammer. Houghton Mifflin Company. 27 May. 2011. .

uncooperative = unhelpful, bullheaded, pigheaded, headstrong, willful, unbending, wayward, unyielding, stubborn, strong-willed

Ængelfolc May-27-2011

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I have brought the "Whig Party Philosophy and Principles" in to Ænglisc (true English, not Anglish). I have also kept three non-Germanic words. They are: Republic, political, and Constitutional. Why? There are no good words that would be readily understood to mean the ideas these words mean. Now, one could borrow from some of the Germanic tongues to find new Germanic words for these ideas. Let's take a look:

Constitution: Danish Forfatning, Grundlov (basic law); German Grundgesetz (basic law), Verfassung (writing, drafting); Icelandic Stjórnarskrá (legal administative writing); Dutch Grondwet (land law); Nynorsk Grunnlov (basic law); Swedish Grundlag (basic law), Författning.

Republic: new Ænglisc Cyneƿīse (folk wise), Icelandic Lýðveldi (folk power). All other Germanic tongues have sadly taken the Latin.

political: Every Germanic tongue has taken this word in. In German, one can still say 'staatsbürgerlich', but that is a Latin-German compound.

I think readers will find this Ænglisc draft easy to read and understand. I have tried to keep the original framework true, but some of it had to be written another way to be understood. This should be the goal of 'Anglishers', and those of us who wish to keep English, well, English: knowable, speakable, readable, usable. Otherwise, this is all a worthless bookish past-time for all. Remarks and ratings welcome.


Latter-day Whig wisdom and standards and the keys to those standards are all about their strength of bearing. Whigs tackle each thing on its own and drawing on our Whig wisdom we can take on each thing in a down-to-earth way.

Our mind is not on one-sided beliefs; it’s on what works for the good of all. We have our standards which we hold steadfast to. Where we are wise is in the keys to those standards. We home in on what we like, or what you like but what works best. Whigs believe that this is what working for the burghership is all about.

* Down-to-earth, broad, even path to law-making puts the American folks first.

* Geared toward finding outcomes and having unyielding standards, yet open to bids from the 'political middle' for over-sight.

* Greater burgher stake in the framing of laws. Highly learned burghers are the new everyman.

* Spotlight on the main things that bear upon all Americans as a whole, not only one group or a few lobby group wants.

* Freedom of political thought and deed, not stuck on one-sided beliefs.

Old political truths are taken over by new truths as burghers work without narrow-mindedness only drawing on latter-day Whig and main Constitutional benchmarks.
Therefore the Whigs are not a wonted burgher group, nor do we have wonted group beliefs. We believe that the same old ways will stay worthless.

Whigs undertake free thought, underscore burgher input, and want the cutting back of lobby earmarks, and to have another look at the ways and means in which lots are drawn, all to uphold a healthy Republic.

Whig wisdom is that which underscores the means by which something is done, and seeks to sharpen or overhaul the ways of our spokesmen.

Kindly look through the following works to find out more about the Whig Wisdom and Whig Standards.

Ængelfolc May-27-2011

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Well, American isn't English either....technically. So, I left four non-Germanic words in. And, before any one gets crazy about lobby and group:

lobby

Ængelfolc May-27-2011

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Ængelfolc: Well that gets my vote; it is as understandable as the original (which is pretty much hot-air anyway). It is unfortunate that when people hear the word "burgher" these days they think one is talking about burgers: indeed instead of president one could use "burgherking" ;=)

jayles May-27-2011

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@jayles: Here is a book you may like reading:

The English is Coming!: How One Language is Sweeping the World
By Leslie Dunton-Downer (2010) ISBN 978-1-4391-7665-8

Ængelfolc May-27-2011

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instead of president one could use "burgherking" ;=)

ROFLMAO!!!! HHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That is a really great one, Jayles!!

It is sad that most folks do not know that 'burgher' is an English word that still could be said today.

Ængelfolc May-27-2011

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@jayles: "it is as understandable as the original (which is pretty much hot-air anyway)."

Yeah, the original was not very well written. I can't believe it was from any political writings. I only wanted to show that English is every bit as usable as Latin/French for law/politics/government things.

Ængelfolc May-27-2011

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"uncooperative = unhelpful, bullheaded, pigheaded, headstrong, willful, unbending, wayward, unyielding, stubborn, strong-willed"
eg I do find your behavior rather unhelpful. .......... yes that's very useable thank you.
"pig-headed" I would consider rude.
"headstrong" not rude but not complimentary.
whereas "strong-willed' might be taken as a compliment.
Latinate words are often neutral, and formal, sometimes that's why we use them.
Apropos of nothing, "makacs" and "onfeju" : at least one can be direct in Hungarian.

jayles May-28-2011

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@Ængelfolc: there's one problem with your oversetting- you have othered the meaning of the original. yes it might be understandable, but it doesn't capture the meaning of the original. What you seem to be upholding is a lessening of the english wordstock, without coming up with any new words for the loan words that are taken out. Well this to me brings about a sorry lessening of the richness of english, and makes us less able to put forth subtelty of meaning, and nuance which our now-time english lets us do. In everyday speech, you could likely get away with simply using already existing english words for the most part, but in academics, if you do not uphold coining new english words to insteaden foreign words, then what you uphold is a loss, maybe a great loss, of english's richness.

wlyan138 May-28-2011

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@ferthfrith: "there's one problem with your oversetting- you have othered the meaning of the original."

I think that not to be true. Let's see what other will have to say. I ask that you show me how the overall meaning is not the same as the original. In good Anglo-Norman, I say: Prove it.

If one takes a look at the meanings of all of the word that I wrote in stead of the Latin ones, and likens the Latin/English writing, then the "Anglish" writing, it is clear that my writing is much more understandable and does not lose any meaning at all.

"What you seem to be upholding is a lessening of the english wordstock, without coming up with any new words for the loan words that are taken out." You are also wrong here. Your words show you do not know or understand where I am coming from.

Go back and read all of my writings. I am for the upholding and keeping of true Ænglisc, not some tongue akin to JRR Tolkien's Elvish. I am much more earnest about bringing old English words back in to the wordstock and back to life, than Anglish seems to be. I am against wanton borrowing. I am also against making Global English by the same token. I am for making more words only after all of the dead or near-dead words have be brought back. And, I am for future words for things being made from English.

It is true, as I have written over and over, that academics, academia, in other words, the elites have been at the heart of the slow fall of true English. Indeed, English was shifted on a path of French/Latin/Greek borrowing. Yes, most of these words need to go.

One will, however, never switch the folks back by trying to thrust weird gobbledegook and "new words" that are not acknowledged and have never been witnessed in any past English writings. Take "now-time English". It's understood, but it is too clumsy and comes across as lowbrow and made up. It doesn't ring true. It does not fit the way of English word-making.

Here is how it is better written with English: latter-day English, today's English, the latest English, leading English, new English, newfangled English, asf. I have to say also that I don't see anything wrong with using all Germanic rooted words that are in English, even if they came down another road into English (like from Frankish, Normaund, Latin, Gothic, Old Norse, or Old High German). Words like vogue, guide, guard, lobby, furnish, asf are all good Germanic words that have Germanic pronunciation, too. Butter, cheese, wine, street, church, and many others, are also good English. They have been fully Anglicized (and Germanicized) and are in use in Germanic tongues everywhere. How would one "Anglify" butter? Cowmilkfat? Milkfat? What about cheese? Sourmilkcurd? Anyway....

The goal should be to shut down the "loanword borrowing machine" and strength the "Germanic compound machine", much in the way that Iceland still does. Icelandic is probably the best standard for English to follow.

It is not about being against the making of new English words instead of borrowing. I am all for that. English, though, already has a lot of words that are not in use. Those have to be look at, too. It is folly to make a bunch of new words and throw them on to of the old without having an idea of what to keep and what to throw out. I am against wanton word making and the wantonly taking words out only because they look foreign.

If "Anglish" ever were able to have its short-sighted sway over the English tongue, I fear that it bring about its death rather than uphold its richness and being as a living tongue.

Ængelfolc May-28-2011

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@jayles: "Latinate words are often neutral, and formal..."

We do not see eye to eye on Latin words being "neutral" in any setting. I think it might seem that way, since they are un-English words. True English words meanings seem to tug at the heart strings a lot more, such as "pigheaded". You take it as straight up rude. Obstinate doesn't sound rude? Recalcitrant sounds like a pharmaceutical. What about contumacious? Insubordinate? Don't they all sound a little too stuffy?

I don't think these words work on English speakers (unless they are brainwashed academics), since they don't hit home in the English heart. It is easy for English speakers to be free from the full bearing of their meaning.

How about stubborn for pigheaded? I always like to say churlish, boorish, uncouth, or loutish instead of rude, but we all have our own way I guess.

Now, we are of the same mind when it comes to Latin being "formal". Yes, Latin (and even Greek and French) have been wrongly regarded as the tongues of the learned. It had a lot to do with 1066, but that doesn't make it right or worth keeping as the norm.

My 2 Marks.

Ængelfolc May-28-2011

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alright Ængelfolc, here are a few byspells (from anglo-saxon bispell):
wisdom for philosophy: Ya, i went to oxford and i majored in wisdom. Sorry, that doesnt work.
key for solution: Like in, i have found the key to the problem, right? No, once again, that sounds ridiculous, that is a gross warping of the meaning of the word key.
mind for focus: Focus is a state of mind, not the mind itself.

You did not give a word for service, and while meaning might not have been othered here, you fail to show the richness of your "pure" english by failing to show that english trully does have a word for service (anglo-saxon, might i add, did have many words for service, but im not sure where you stand with bringing back anglo-saxon words. you see, you thought what i wrote sounded elvish, well if you want to bring back anglo-saxon words, and i myself am all for that, then english will be sounding very elvish indeed, which in my mind is not a bad thing).

Some more byspells:

outcome for solution: here again, outcome does not mean the same thing as solution. outcomes can be bad, while solutions solve things.
take over for replace: like im going to take my old tire over with a new one. No, take over, does not mean replace, and though you might get away with it in your oversetting, it is a very weak oversetting (old truths taken over by new truths. Does this mean that the new truths are now in control of the old truths, and that the old truths are still there somehow?)

means by which something is done vs. method: One whole phrase for one word, that smells like a weak, poor language to me. Why not think up a new word, tap the potential of english's germanicness. do not fear newness. deedway for method. wonderful, one word for one word, following the wordbuilding laws of english (noun-noun). or will the word deedway lead to the death of english?

Your oversetting is midworthed (mediocre. hmmm, i wonder what your already-existing english word for mediocre might be,). I mean it's okay, but it's easy to see that it is not a loyal, truthfast oversetting.

I mean come on, words like deedway and midworthed are going to lead to the dead of english? thats belaughly, they are made up of english roots. they give off the very being of englishness. they are english indeed.

wlyan138 May-28-2011

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Ængelfolc: "How about stubborn for pigheaded? I always like to say churlish, boorish, uncouth, or loutish instead of rude"
Yes I agree I feel most latin words borrowed in the last five hundred years are "foreign", and so less emotive. Maybe this is why they are favored by modern managers.
I can call a student (customer, employee or co-worker) unhelpful, stubborn, obstinate, uncooperative, disrespectful, disruptive, sullen, wayward, or headstrong, maybe uncouth too." willful " as in "willful disobedience" is fine too. These words are generally descriptive of observed behavior, rather than an emotional reaction on my part.
I wouldn't risk "pigheaded" nor "idiotic". They give the impression that I myself am too judgemental, reactive and emotional. Bluntly my boss would not support me.
Of course it is all mealy-mouthed, but the way of our PC society today.
Is it not the same in your business life?

jayles May-28-2011

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"deedway" ??? halvany gozom sincs rola

jayles May-28-2011

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Nem vagyok mano, se mano-ul beszelek

jayles May-28-2011

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"byspell" ?? ez biztosan valami mellekbubaj egy torpetol, ugye?

jayles May-29-2011

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@ferthfrith:

Thanks for your thoughts. I am underwhelmed by your "evidence". Your critique is full of ad hominems, is wholly groundless, rooted in folly, and fails to acknowledge that ALL of the words (except 4) are true English words. Your writing had the following: issue (3x), using (3x), centrist, partaking (2), citizen, normal, core, political (3x), realities, part, bias, party (2x), stress (2x), electoral, ensure, Republic, and Please. And, you did not "over-set" guidelines, which is a Latin-English compound. I mean, you come on! You were making up words and you failed to make any to put in their stead? You have only helped to show that my "over-setting" is true and right. Allow me to shed some light on what I mean.

* "wisdom for philosophy": It works, if one understands the words meaning. Philosophy written in Old English (or Anglo-Saxon if you like) was wīsdōm. To study philosophy was written as uþwitegung (which is a lost word). The Greek word simply means "love of wisdom, knowledge". In this case, philosophy meant "any system of belief, values, or tenets; a personal outlook or viewpoint", so "Whig Wisdom" means just that. Also, wisdom is a synonym for philosophy. Look it up.

* "key for solution","outcome for solution": Well, "...sounds ridiculous..." to one who doesn't understand English well. Not all solutions solve things, and not all solutions work. Your point is moot. 'Key' can mean many things in English like "something that is crucial in providing an explanation or interpretation; a means of achieving a desired end; the correct initial move in the solution of a set problem". Indeed, in Old English cǣg, cǣge (key) meant "solution" or "that which serves to open or explain". The proto-Germanic root *ki- means "to cleaver, split", "put forth". Hmmm... I guess it's bad English. 'Solution' can mean "in that state of being solved", as inferred in "solutions-oriented". Outcome, "a conclusion reached, end result". If something has been "solved", an "end result, conclusion" was reached. All you did was calque it---> "loosenouts". Tell you teacher you're gonna "loosenout" the problem. How about "loosenup"? Digout? Shakeloose? Talk about ridiculous. BTW, I'm fine with Old English being a wellspring for new English words. It's better than making up a bunch of gibberish, unless gibberish is the goal---which mine is not.

* "You did not give a word for service": I guess I could have written 'thrall' (O.E. þrǣl

Ængelfolc May-29-2011

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@jayles:

"byspell" is OE bīspel(l), biġspel(l), in use before 990 AD, which meant "example, proverb". It's a cognate with latter-day German Beispiel "example, tale". Zum Beispiel, an abschreckendes/warnendes Beispiel in German means a "cautionary tale".

By-spell (as it is written today) is listed in Webster's Dictionary with only the meaning of "proverb", and is marked as "obsolete".

Ængelfolc May-29-2011

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Ængelfolc: you miss the subtely of english. you think you can do away with words like solution and replace and focus with no afterfollows (consequences. sorry, outcome doesnt work here). The truth is this- many of english's foreign words are very much in everyday-use, and they are used in specific ways. Native english words and their latin equivalents are, well not really equivalent much of the time, they each serve their purpose. You think you can work around this by oversetting words with phrases. Jesus we could lessen the english wordstock by half if you had your way and wouldn't have nearly the richness and power of expression we have today.
Lessening the english wordstock as you do calls for a heavy realiance on context for meaning to be understood, as you take two or more words, and bring them down to one, making two or more meanings once expressed by two or more words, now expressed by one, with meaning in each case hanging off on context.

Ya compond words are words, phrases are not words.
how about this. let's drop the word tree and call it the thing with leaves on it. that works.

you do away with subtely of meaning to make forth your "pure english" and you think thats wonderful, all the while you have little regard for the important role that foreign words play in filling in gaps of meaning.
You call my words gibberish, on what grounds, that theyre not in common use? Big shit, new words are spoken everyday, and some catch on you know. What is a real word anyway?
Loosenout and deedway are ridiculous. On what grounds, your taste?
Your judment of my words is feeling-grounded, and based on nothing logical.

wlyan138 May-29-2011

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I am surprised you are against anglish, Ængelfolc, for someone who claims to uphold english purity. What Ængelfolc shall we do with words like biology or mathematics or industry or agriculture? Some of these academic words OE did have words for, and that is great, let's bring all these words back. astrology had tungolcraft, mathematics rimecraft, philosophy outhwitting. OE i believe had a word for agriculture, tillingcraft or something. But let's say the word cropcraft is brought into english. Would that be a bad thing because it has never existed in english? I dont think so, not at all. All germanic coinages add to the richness of the germanic side of english.
what shall we do though for words that english has never had an equivalent for. I think you would underwreathe coining new words in these cases. Science could be ikindwitting, from OE ikind which meant nature. Economy could be worthdom or something.
but to be against coinages is silly. Words are coined all the time by the academie francaise for byspell, and by many other language overseeing groups.

wlyan138 May-29-2011

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@ferthfrith: "afterfollows (consequences. sorry, outcome doesnt work here)"

Your sad "findings" (O.E. fandung, tǣcning, bīsnung "proof") are left badly wanting and without any weigtht or bearing.

Hmmm. Well, 'consequence' means "the effect, result, or outcome of something occurring earlier". Odd. 'Outcome' is in the meaning of the word itself. It WILL work here... it's okay.

1) The word is the present participle of L. consequī, meaning "to follow closely". So, one could also say in the stead of the Latin: "it follows that" (Yikes! A phrase!), "aftermath", "end", "fallout", "outgrowth", "aftershock", to name a few. Such already is the "richness" of English.

2) "Tree" (O.E. trēo(w), PGmc *trewan) is a Germanic English word that has been in the tongue since before 900 AD. There are many lone words, but the way of a Germanic tongue is to make compounds and phrases to talk about new things. Phrases are made of words, and are great to use in English.You have missed your mark here. Moot.

3) "you have little regard for the important role that foreign words play in filling in gaps of meaning": Either you haven't read my other posts, or you don't understand them. It is some-what true that I do not regard foreign words that fill in "gaps", since many times an English words exists that could be used instead, but that's all. In science, academia, fashion, technology, asf, it is more than a few gaps. Whole new English words would have to be made.

Now, I don't take kindly to folks putting words in my mouth or thoughts in my head. I do not think or believe any of what you put forth in your rant. I am not against "Anglish", or against making new English words or "coinages", and I am not for, nor do I uphold, English "purity" (that is folly).

As for "subtlety", do you really think that a glut of words is subtle? Shades of meaning are not merely marked with lots of lone words, but how the words are crafted and come together to shape meaning in an other than straight-forward way. Lots of words are not needed for a tongue to be rich. That is not true. Is the poem Beowulf a lesser poem because it was written at a time when English had less that 500,000 words? What about Cædmon's Hymn written in the late six-hundreds?

New words are outgrowths of a living tongue. How do you think "ginormous", "smackdown", "microgreen", and "Bollywood" made it into the Merriam-Webster wordbook in 2007? Pop Culture. That usually where new words come from. The folks make up the words as needed. See if you can make "loosenout" trendy, where folks will say it to mean "solution".

Now, "Cropcraft", maybe, since "craft" is still in common today, but that could easily mean "farming", too. And, we have "crop-sharing". "Deedway" (which is a family surname, in case you didn't know) for method will likely never fly, since you have to convince all of the academics and scientists. Those groups love Latin/Greek words. They were trained to believe they are higher register (smarter) words. Further, I think that we should look to other latter-day Germanic tongues to put in stead of Latin/French/Greek ones. I don't see why we shouldn't borrow from sister tongues. See, no feelings, all well thought out.

"as you take two or more words, and bring them down to one, making two or more meanings once expressed by two or more words, now expressed by one" Yes, it is a hallmark of English and Germanic tongues in general. Look up "kennings". The kenning is a great weapon in the English arsenal.

I think bringing back the words "lost" in Old English and highlighting the English words in latter-day English are needed to strengthen the heart of the tongue. After that, then I think new words can be made better, more easily, and taken in quicker by the folks---they have to be "de-Frenchified".

"Agriculture", by the way, was written Eorþtilung (Earth tilling).

Thanks again for your thoughts. Cheers!

Ængelfolc May-29-2011

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For Fun:

SCIENCE >> O.E. woruldwīsdōm >> worldwisdom, worldknowledge

NATURE (order of things) >> gecynd(e) >> Mid. Eng. kind(e) >> Mod, Eng. kind ("The Book of Genesis" was called "Gecyndboc" by Ælfric). Shift back to the original meaning would have to happen for this to work.

ECONOMY (Gk. oikonomíā ----> oîko(s) 'house' + nomia 'law'---> "household management") >> maybe 'worthship' (O.E. weorþsciepe, cf. German Wirtschaft, which is just a calque of Gk.οἰκονόμος) or 'marketworthship' pr 'worthshipthrift' or 'landworththrift' (country economy). Most every Germanic tongue today uses the Greek.

INDUSTRY >> Mod. Eng. Business (O.E. bisiġnes(s), "movie business"), Trade (O.E. tredan, "plumbing trade"), Craft (O.E. cræft, cf. German 'Kraft')

BIOLOGY (bíos 'life' + lógos, logia 'study of') >> funny thing about this word is that it was made up around 1800 by German scientist Karl Friedrich Burdach. English should look to Icelandic for a new word, since all of the other Germanic tongues use the Greek, likely since a German-speaker coined the word. See what I mean about scientists and their love of Latin/Greek words?

Icelandic Líffræði (life science) is a great model for English: Líf (O.E. līf "life, body") + fræði (O.E. frōd "wise, wisdom, understanding") >> so, maybe 'lifelearning', 'lifeunderstanding', 'lifewisdom', lifeknowledge' or something like it.

Ængelfolc May-29-2011

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biology >> līffrōd

Now this might work to get the academics and scientists to take an earnest look at switching over!

Ængelfolc May-29-2011

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Correction about BIOLOGY:

Burdach coined the term "morphology" in 1800. The first to use the word biology, however, was by another German scientist, Michael Christoph Hanov (1695-1773), in his work Philosophiae naturalis sive physicae dogmaticae: Geologia, biologia, phytologia generalis et dendrologia (1766). Hanov did this because he believed that "souled beings" had to be split from "un-souled beings". Therefore, a new word was needed.

Interestingly, 'biologi(a)' was used in 17th century Germany and earlier to mean 'biography'.

Ængelfolc May-29-2011

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@jayles: "...words are generally descriptive of observed behavior, rather than an emotional reaction...is it not the same in your business life?"

Well, couldn't you say any of the above, if you framed it up by saying, "Your behavior is..." or "I find you behavior..."?

"I find your behavior churlish." "Your behavior is pigheaded."

Yes, sometimes in the business world PC words have to be used. I try to get away with speaking English whenever I can, though. Sometimes it leads to edgy stuff, but at least its honest and straight-forward. I have found most folks have a high regard for that.

Ængelfolc May-29-2011

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Ængelfolc: yes and no. I think people hear and remember the word, not exactly how it was used. The other thing is, as you probably realise, if it comes to defending what was said to one's boss, it's better if not to have said "pigheaded" at all. As it is I was able to use "rude, sullen, disrespctful, and uncooperative" this morning, (which I had carefully pre-taught last week).
In teaching English for business and academic purposes, there isn't time to teach everything, so we concentrate on the most useful words, and exclude words that could create trouble; so I wouldn't teach "pigheaded"; say this to your boss or a policeman and you are in trouble.
If I were teaching for journalism, creative writing, policing, or terrorism, then of course "pig", "pighead" and "pigheaded" would right there on my list, along with how to say good morning in Arabic.
I always remember being taught the "f***" word in Slovakia, just they forgot to tell me how rude it was. (There is a roman road along the A5 in England called "Foss Way")

jayles May-29-2011

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I notice "oversee" is making a comeback in job advertisements, (in lieu of "supervise")
and we already have the Senate Oversight committee. However I haven't seen "overseer" yet (for supervisor); to me "overseer" brings up pictures of plantation slavery, so I guess that's why

jayles May-29-2011

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Re: economy; if we ditch "economy" then we also must ditch "economical", "ecological" , "eco-friendly" "eco-niche" "eco-farming" etc. Likewise if we ditch "place" we must also ditch "replace", "emplacement" "placement", "outplacement" ..
same with all the "ology" words.. (except they're all academic)

jayles May-29-2011

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You mock my coining of new words and then switch over to being seemingly more open to them, all to show yourself as logical.
By purity, I mean words that ring well to the english ear. words that are made up of known parts, and that are therefore felt as being owned by the english speaker, rather than given to them by a wordbook.
having more words to express shades of meaning is indeed a token of a strong language. it means not having to rely on context, it adds richness.

500 000 words at the time of beowulf. that's a huge number, and without all the scientific jargon that nobody understands, nowtime english would likely have a lot less words than that.
Deedway will never fly because of academics? Well then you might as well drop all that your doing cause academics will be against it.
aftermath", "end", "fallout", "outgrowth", "aftershock."'
Let's test these out in a sentence: Jim, do your homework or youll suffer the consequences.
suffer the aftermath. Like what's left after a disaster?
suffer the ends. No explanation needed.
suffer the fallouts. well this could work though not fully, since it means something more along the lines of bad side-effect rather than consequence.
suffer the outgrowths. like a growth on the body right? this one doesn't ring well, though admittedly it's not that bad, though it does express something more like something that is made by something, instead of something that follows from actions or events.
suffer the aftershock. like an earthquake right? this one is too figurative and intense for my liking.

and here's the thing with outcome. it's neutral, whereas consequence is not. consequence is mostly used to describe an undesirable result. outcome even has a slight differenece in meaning to the word result. Result expresses a direct following from something, like this workout routine has given me great reults. But outcome expresses a kind of collection of actions or events that folow out in something happening. it would be really stupid to say this workout routine has given me really great outcomes. So you see, our many-worded language does give us the ability to express shades of meaning, and you can't simply do away with foreign words without compromising that.
Also, i am well aware that tree is native english, i was being sarcastic if you didnt notice.
there you go again with the word industry, thinking we can drop it and be fine filling it in with either business, trade, or craft. It doesn't work. Industry brings to mind the mass production of things. business is an entity involved in money-making, and means everything that entity does while going about doing this. trade is along the lines of skilled work. Craft too is along the lines of skilled work, but expresses finer work still. the word industry serves a good purpose and i wouldnt like to see it go without a coinage being put in its stead. How about worthship form the german wirtshaft, though I dont really like this since worthsip meant something like honour or respect, and it makes more sense using it in that way. Hmm I don't know maybe makingdom or felemaking (fele from OE for many, akin to german viel) or michelmaking.

also, as for the greek ology, why not just use lore. this is how it was used in OE, and it stems form the root learn, so its quite logical. biology would then be lifelore.

indeed new words are made everyday by native speakers. this is how new words should arise, i believe, instead of being imposed by an "academie". they should be welcomed and praised.

icelandic is truly a language to look up to. I envy those who speak, they have such a powerful language, so fully owned, so fully understood by its speakers.

wlyan138 May-29-2011

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The best way to influence the future of realworld english is via what children are taught at school. For centuries english children were taught French and/or Latin as their first foreign language, so romance borrowings come naturally. If children were taught Dutch, they would more easily use germanic words, and borrowings, and English would become more germanic over the succeeding generations.
However, in the real world Chinese, Arabic and Hindi might prove more useful.

jayles May-30-2011

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very true jayles, youre spot on. school is likely the single most weighty influence on how english speakers get their language. Come to think of it, i myself did learn most of my french/latin/greek wordstock at school, often from a wordbook. How sad, we learn our words as kids by looking them up in a wordbook. But for sure, if we switched over to teaching a germanic langauge at school, this would strengthen germanic english. Actually, i first became interseted in anglish, and in the potential of germanic english, after learning german.

wlyan138 May-30-2011

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@ferthfrith:

You do not understand, nor seem to want to. Listening begets understand begets wisdom.

* "You mock my coining of new words and then switch over..." NO, you misunderstand again. Read...think...read again...think...understand. I ask again, read my other posts on this blog. I mock wanton word-making and wanton borrowing. They are the same evil, just on froward side of the same coin. I cannot be any more forth coming and straight forward: over-borrowing >> bad; making words for the sake of a one-to-one swap >> bad; loanwords taken when it is from mixing of folks and folkways >> good; making new English words when one is needed for a thought or thing, if one isn't already in the wordbook >> good.

* "500 000 words at the time of beowulf." No, I wrote ,"less than 500,000 words". The point being that great written works were done without so many words.

* "you might as well drop all that your doing cause academics will be against it.
aftermath", "end", "fallout", "outgrowth", "aftershock."'" Uh, you must be joking! Right?! These words are already used by academics and scientist all the time. They are real words that are in all English wordbooks, except maybe an "Anglish" one. They are already accepted. English speakers have been trained to take "consequence" as less neutral. Your "byspells" are one-sided and only prove the weakness in your position.

* "there you go again with the word industry, thinking we can drop it..." We can, and often do. Business, trade, and craft are used interchangeably with "industry all the time. So, industry is rather "superfluous", like most borrowed words. For all of your "byspells", I ask that you look at the meanings written in the English wordbooks. Just because one "feels" or "takes" a meaning in a certain way, doesn't mean it is right. The wordbook is the guide one should use when trying to show the truth of his findings.

You are right about O.E. weorþsciepe, worðscip, wurðscip, weorðscipe (c.1300 AD). I did not even think about it being the English word "worship". Too hard to change that meaning around.

I am all for bringing back "lore" (German lehr) or frōd and broadening their use.

Ængelfolc May-30-2011

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@jayles, @ferthfrith:

I am with you guys! We have talked about academia and the church being roots of the downfall or lessening of the English tongue. English is much more akin to Danish, Frisian, Dutch, and German at it's heart. Let's make German a must to learn for all learners (since it is the second most spoken tongue in the EU) and maybe Mandarin.

To be forthright, German (really Oberfränkisch ;-p) is my first tongue, so I tend to lean a little more toward anything German. But, I am for any of the Germanic tongues, since I am a striving Germanist.

Funny thing about a lot of these "scientific words": most of them seem to be coined by German scientists! ;-( Take "ecology"

Ængelfolc May-30-2011

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wow Ængelfolc maybe you should stick to german. let the native english speaker's deal with english.
English speakers have been trained to take consequence as less neutral? what is that suppost to mean. we take it as less neutral cause thats how its fucking used in everyday speech, we werent trained.
You wish to get rid of foreign words and insteaden them with with native words. well, you said that academics oppose this, and i was pointing out that if that is your thinking then what you are doing should be thought of as useless by you. yes native words are of course used by academics but you wish to do away with foreign words which you say academics are against doing.
You mock wanton word-making". well i guess this is where we disagree Ængelfolc. What to me is a sound coinage is wanton to you.
I stand by my opinion that the variety of words in english brings about a richness of expression, and that to do away with foreign words while having their specific meanings be absorbed by native words which themselves have specific meanings, is to impoverish the english language.
Wow Ængelfolc you really have a hard time grasping one of english's hallmarks: that of using many words to express many shades of meaning. honestly, if you cant see that industry is not the same as business, or trade or craft, then theres no use going on quibbling about this. im not sure what kind of english you speak but it's not the english that's spoken where im from, nor the english that's spoken on tv, nor the english that's read in books asf. we clearly have different understandings of the english language.

wlyan138 May-30-2011

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@ferthfrith:

Profanity and hateful speech are signs of a weak, feeble mind trying to forcefully express itself. Clearly, this means you. There is no need to be rude on this blog.

You are frustrated since you can't handle the well-grounded rebuttals to your positions. It seems, like I said, you don't acknowledge the truth of what anyone writes, even when it can be backed up by many (old and new) sources, like dictionaries. Opening the ears opens the mind.

Academics like Latin/Greek roots to name scientific things. What you have put forth would fall on to deaf ears (deedway, loosenouts, asf). I never said that the academics would take on any new words that would put forth, only that they do use existing English words.

"Sound coinage"? That means to me that the word made follows English rules, is made from English bits, and sounds "English". It has nothing to do with it being wanton. A well made word or word-string can also be wanton.

"...grasping one of english's hallmarks: that of using many words to express many shades of meaning..." This is a latter-day (over the last 400 years or so) thing, that many English academics have argued actually has weakened English and lessened it's richness. I guess it depends on where one stands. This supposed "hallmark" is not lost on me, but after much study, I do not think so highly of this idea and question it.

"...theres no use going on quibbling about this..." Yes! Let's move on. You are not open to anything but your own thoughts. I come hear to talk about making English better; to openly (with an open mind) talk about ideas with others, not to attack them. Bad form, ferthfrith.

"im not sure what kind of english you speak but it's not the english that's spoken where im from, nor the english that's spoken on tv, nor the english that's read in books asf. we clearly have different understandings of the english language." I speak English, like you or anyone else. The proof is in my writings. We do understand English differently, and even native speakers understand English differently, too. Education, zum Beispiel, is a big factor. You are making a value-judgement about me that is unfounded and ignorant.

INDUSTRY: any general business activity; commercial enterprise; organized economic activity concerned with manufacture

BUSINESS: a person, partnership, or corporation engaged in commerce, manufacturing, or a service; profit-seeking enterprise or concern; an industrial, commercial, or professional operation; commercial activity; dealings; (adj.) of, noting, or pertaining to business, its organization, or its procedures; a trade or profession.

TRADE: of or pertaining to trade or commerce; the people and practices of an industry, craft, or business; amount of custom or commercial dealings; business; a specified market or business: the tailoring trade; an occupation in commerce, as opposed to a profession; to buy and sell (commercial merchandise); to deal or do business (with); Business or commerce; economic activity.

CRAFT: an art, trade, or occupation requiring special skill; the members of such a trade, regarded collectively

SOURCES:
Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition
2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2011

So, it would seem business can mean 'industry', 'trade' maybe in a less formal setting. Certainly, 'trade' and 'craft' can shift back and forth, and can also mean 'business'. I am not sure where I "don't get it". Indeed, there are special uses for these words, but if another of the many meaning were to be highlighted... I didn't write the wordbooks, I only go by them.

Ferfrith, your ideas would seem to fit in well over at the "Anglish Moot". I am sure they'd love your input, since you seem to be of similar mind and purpose.

Again, no hard feelings! Mach's gut...

Ængelfolc May-30-2011

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profanity? hah that's funny. it's my thing see, i like it, so sorry if i offended you. I swear not cause im angry but cause its part of my everyday speech. You cant fucking interpret peoples emotions on a blog.80% of human expression is by facial expression and voice pitch. You are making a value-judgement about ME that is unfounded and ignorant.
your sarcasm could be taken to be a weak, feeble mind trying to forecefully express itself.
Im not even gonna go in to the conclusion you drew from those definitons you gave. the defintions prove me being right, they are in essence identical to my defintions. it should be clear enough that trade, craft, and business are indeed words with different meanings, and cannot be freely interchanged.
Can't handle your well-grounded rebuttals? wow you really are high up in the air Ængelfolc. you havent proven anything to me. i could go on talking this topic through, but i hate the inefficiency of blog-conversation. I have better things to do, like actually going out and talking to people, and spreading anglish, instead of sitting in front of my computer blabbering on about the sorry state of english
hah and you cite your dictionary sources. 3 dictionaries, 3, jesus. wow you really are something Ængelfolc, thourough indeed, you should be proud. i hate to judge without having ever met you, but you seem to take this blog way too seriously, as if it feeds your sense of importance, your ego or something.
Zum beispiel, mach's gut? once again Ængelfolc, stick to german, you seem to know and like it more than you do english.

wlyan138 May-30-2011

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@ferthfrith:

“Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something.” -Plato

My words, just as your words, speak for themselves. Your reply is exactly what I expected. It makes what I have written ring even more true. Thank you!

All we have are the words on this blog by which to judge, nothing else. So, what one writes is all that can be known. That's all anyone here can do. Trying to go beyond that is not a right or becoming way to be.

I hope now we all can get back to talking about English on this blog in a fruitful, worthwhile way.

Cheers to all!

Ængelfolc May-31-2011

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ferthfrith & Ængelfolc: You two have much common ground in common. Simply different solutions.
There are also often differences in the AngloSaxon and a more Teutonic approach to business: for example AngloSaxons often go to business meetings expecting an open discussion, only to find the other side meticulously prepared and equipped with a set-in-stone proposal. The approaches can be very different.
Finally as the Hungarian King (forgotten his name) said before the first battle of Mohacs: "know thy enemy"
Of course he lost.

jayles May-31-2011

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@ jayles: Als "Teutone", bin ich genau derselben Meinung. Wenn auch die Loesungsansaetzen der Angelsachsen und der Teutonen ganz anders sind, gibt es noch einen guten Weg und einen schlechten Weg. Leider ist dies, wo die Meinungsverschiedenheit liegt.

Your words are wise and ring true, jayles. Good show, and thank you!

Ængelfolc May-31-2011

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@jayles:

Wasn't it Luis II of Hungary? I thought "know thy enemy" was from Sun Tzu (The Art of War)?

Ængelfolc May-31-2011

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Here are some old science words that were coined by Germanic speakers. They all spoke Germanic tongues, yet they chose to take from Latin and Greek to make these new words.

neuron, chromosome >> Heinrich Wilhelm Gottfried von Waldeyer-Hartz (German)

genetics >> William Bateson (English)

gene >> Wilhelm Johannsen (Danish)

biceps brachii >> Bernhard Weiss (German)

iris >> Jacob Winslow (Danish)

dinosaur >> Sir Richard Owen (English)

cell >> Robert Hooke (English)

histology >> August Meyer (German)

Unbelievable, right? Sadly, French/Latin/Greek were/are the tongues of woruldwīsdōm (science).

Ængelfolc May-31-2011

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"Wasn't it Luis II of Hungary? I thought "know thy enemy" was from Sun Tzu (The Art of War)?" Genau; es war als Witz gemeint.

Yes discussion and negotiation styles do vary quite a lot around the world. It is wise to know what to expect; truly great people can switch styles to suit.
.

jayles Jun-01-2011

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@jayles: "Genau; es war als Witz gemeint." Sorry, verstand den Witz sofort nicht. Obwohl haben Sie recht. Ich verhandle einen grossen Betrag des Auslandsgeschaefts, und verstehe ganz genau. Trotzdem lauert Engstirnigkeit immer irgendwo im Hintergrund.

Ængelfolc Jun-01-2011

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Ængelfolc: Ich bin selbst engstirnig, d.h. ich will dass die Auslaender sich genau wie echten Englaender benehmen; mir ist das viel bequemer, hoeflicher. Warum die Koreaner das nicht machen koennen? - das ist mir voellig schleierhaft

jayles Jun-01-2011

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@jayles: Das ist eine ganz andere Sache. Ich denke, dass fast jeder auf diese Art und Weise 'engstirnig' ist, und richtig so. Das ist fuer Auslaender nur richtig, die Sprache und Braeuche des Gastlandes anzunehmen. (Besonders, wenn sie dauerhaften Residentstatus oder Staatsbürgerschaft erwerben wollen) ..m.M.n...

Ængelfolc Jun-01-2011

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Ængelfol: Jedoch wenn man in Korea aufgewachsen sei, und an der koreanische Bildungssystem geleidet hat, denkt man nur auf koreanischer Weise. Das koreanische Bildungssystem konzentrierte sich wohl auf Routine/Auswendiglernen, aktiv entmutigt das fuer sich selbst Denken; in der Tat waren bis in den letzen Jahren alle Tests als „multichoice“ formiert.. Das Ergebnis ist, wenn man eine koreanische nach ihrer Meinung fragt, koennen die Antwort leise vorkommen, "Ich weiß absolut nicht; niemand hat mich nach meiner Meinung je bisher gefragt". Daher ist es eine wirklich große Angabe fuer sie, in eine voellig andere "europaeische" Gesellschaft zu integrieren.
Auf der selben Weise ist es oft eine wirklich große Angabe fuer jemand mit einem ganz anderen Verhandlungsstil zu operieren.

jayles Jun-01-2011

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ferthfrith: "Thourough indeed, you should be proud.... but you seem to take this way too seriously, as if it feeds your sense of importance, your ego or something."

This is a common anglosaxon response to the teutonic work ethic. I find it maddening too sometimes. If you ever live in Germany you would have to see the upside: they make wonderful cars, and everything works; everything is tidy and orderly; but don't make jokes or talk about your private life while doing business; it is separate.
We all have our foibles!

jayles Jun-01-2011

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"mit einem ganz anderen Verhandlungsstil " better: bei einem ganz.......

jayles Jun-01-2011

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@jayles: Your German is very good! You are also right about the Anglo-Saxon (which includes America) vs. the Teutonic ways of doing things. LOL! It is so true, and so funny at the same time. Did you live in Germany before?

Von meiner Sichtweise muessen die Einwanderer sich zur Kultur der Wahlheimat anpassen. Multikulti ist gescheitert. Einzelne Kultur, einzelne Richtung; viele Kulturen, viele Richtungen (im Wettstreit) >> Verfall der Hauptkultur des Landes.

Ængelfolc Jun-01-2011

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Ængelfolc: "Here are some old science words that were coined by Germanic speakers. They all spoke Germanic tongues, yet they chose to take from Latin and Greek to make these new words.

neuron, chromosome >> Heinrich Wilhelm Gottfried von Waldeyer-Hartz (German)

genetics >> William Bateson (English)

gene >> Wilhelm Johannsen (Danish)

biceps brachii >> Bernhard Weiss (German)

iris >> Jacob Winslow (Danish)

dinosaur >> Sir Richard Owen (English)

cell >> Robert Hooke (English)

histology >> August Meyer (German)

Unbelievable, right? Sadly, French/Latin/Greek were/are the tongues of woruldwīsdōm (science)"

Seems Jacob Winslow also even chose some French to go betwixt his gospelsome first name and his (utterlilike English looking) Danish last name. Though seeing has Winslow ended up in France, maybe it was an early example of the French bullying outsiders to frenchify their names.

Would it be wrong to say England have been the longest and biggest Romance fetishers - Nan Bullen to Anne Boleyn, Battenberg to Mountbatten rather than Battenburgh, Battenbury or Battenborough etc. Anyway, don't understand why this fashionista didn't go wholehog, drop the 'Winslow' bit, leaving: Jacques-Bénigne 'Guineslou'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_B._Winslow

......

/Jacob B. Winsløw, also known as Jacques-Bénigne Winslow, Danish-born anatomist (1669, Odense – 1760, Paris)/

/Winsløw greatly admired Bishop Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet, the famous preacher, and, as a consequence, he slightly changed his Danish Christian names to those of Bossuet/

Stanmund Jun-01-2011

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ÆngelfolcL "Did you live in Germany before?" quite a while ago now
www.targettraining.eu

jayles Jun-01-2011

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@Stanmund: "Would it be wrong to say England have been the longest and biggest Romance fetishers..." LOL! No, I don't think that wrong. For a while, when French culture was "in", folks tried to Frenchfy themselves on purpose, especially in Britain.

WINSLOW (OE wine(s) "friend's" + OE hlǣw, hlāw "hill, hillock, barrow"; cf. Gothic *hlaiw "grave, tomb, cave", Old Saxon hléo, OHG hlaeo, hlēo, lēo, MHG lē); English name is from a place in Buckinghamshire; OE hlǣw is still found in modern place-names (esp. Scotland) like "Berwick law", "Houndslow", "Marlow", "Eastlow", "Westlow", and "Ludlow" >> Wineshlauu (849 AD, The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle), Winneshlaw, Winneslaw, Winneslow > (here begin the Anglo-Norman corruptions of the English original) Wynselawe, Wynselowe, Wynslowe >> Windslow, Winslow.

***HOWEVER***

In the case of Jacob Benignus Winsløw (baptised as Jacob Christian Winsløw), the name Winsløw was taken from the city of Vinslöv in Skåne (today in Sweden, but back then was part of Denmark), where his father was born.

So, vin(s) + löf (löf, löv, løv, lef, lev) >> Vinslöv >> Winslof >> Winsløw >> Winslow

Ængelfolc Jun-02-2011

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So what exactly is the origin of "Hounslow" which is on the Picadilly line to Heathrow airport near london? Nothing to do with the hounds slowing down then? It was a coachstop for stagecoaches going west along what used to be the A30....

jayles Jun-02-2011

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@jayles: Houn(d)slow >> O.E. hundes + O.E. hlāw (hound's burial)

Ængelfolc Jun-02-2011

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So what about "install" which prima facie has latin roots, but thence goes back to the same gemanic roots as "forestall"? Of course "installation" is also an issue.

jayles Jun-03-2011

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@jayles:

Install (-ation, ment)

Ængelfolc Jun-03-2011

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Someone translate this into Anglish, please....

This is from the US Air Force website --> http://airforce.com/careers/detail/airborne-cryptologic/


Airborne Cryptologic Linguist

Career Description

Persian Farsi, Chinese, Russian, Pashtu, Japanese, and Korean are just some of the languages you can learn as an Airborne Cryptologic specialist. Why do you need to know a different language? Because your primary job will be to receive, record, translate, evaluate, and report on foreign communications and intelligence. Many of the skills and equipment you'll use are classified, and since you'll be part of an aircrew, you could find yourself in any part of the world doing your job.

Career Tasks

Operate airborne signals intelligence systems and mission equipment
Use radio receivers, recording and related equipment to translate, evaluate, and report on communications
Perform and assist in mission planning and developing air-tasking orders
Receive, transmit and relay encoded and decoded messages
Record special interest mission information and maintain the status of mission aircraft, targets and air-tasking order information
Perform aircrew duties, including emergency equipment usage, and preflight/postflight inspections
Maintain technical aids, logs, and records

Relevant Interests & Skills

Aircraft
Electronics
Computer Science
Foreign Languages

Training

After eight-and-a-half weeks of Basic Military Training, every Airman goes to technical training to learn their career. Here's the basic information about Airborne Cryptologic technical training:

School locations: Lackland AFB [TX], Fairchild AFB [WA], Goodfellow AFB [TX], Monterey [CA]

Length of course: varies

College degree earned: Communications Applications Technology

College credits earned: varies

Adam2 Jun-04-2011

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I notice that they are not seeking anyone fluent in Anglish or offering training therein.

jayles Jun-04-2011

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Airborne Cryptologic Linguist >> Loftborne Deorclǣrisc Tungcræfter? ;-)

Ængelfolc Jun-04-2011

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Airborne Cryptologic Linguist >> Skyborne Deorclǣrisc Tungcræfter??

Ængelfolc Jun-04-2011

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MAYBE more true:

Airborne Cryptologic Linguist >> Skyborne Fæstdeorcrūnġereċċanlǣrisc Tungcræfter??

Ængelfolc Jun-04-2011

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My bad...."sky" is not good "Anglish", it's Norse.

Scēogeboren Fæstdeorcrūnġereċċanlǣrisc Tungcræfter

Ængelfolc Jun-04-2011

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Even better? Scēogeboren Scyldwrītendeorcrūnreċċanungslǣrisc Tungcræfter

Ængelfolc Jun-04-2011

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Help I need a cryptologist to decode that!

jayles Jun-04-2011

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Cryptology >> ( nīwe Eald Ænglisċ) Hȳddonrūnwrītingslǣr?

Ængelfolc Jun-04-2011

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@jayles: "Help I need a cryptologist to decode that!"

LOL! I was just messing around with some Ænglisc...maybe it will lead to a good "Anglish" word. At first, I muddled the new Ænglisc word a bit. I was trying to get the meaning of "cryptology/cryptography". Cryptology, as you know, is literally, "study of secrets (codes)".

Scēogeboren >> "airborne" >> lit. Scēo (cloud, sky) + geboren (borne)

Hȳddonrūnwrītingslǣrisċ >> "cryptologic" >> Hȳddon (hidden, secret) rūn (code, cipher) wrītings (graphic, writings) lǣrisċ (lore,knowledge, science, "study of...")

Tungcræfter >> "linguist" >> Tung (tongue, language) + cræfter (crafter, "one who is skilled")

So, in today's English (w/o Latin) >> "Skyborne Hidden-rune-writings-lorish Tongue-crafter"

Oh well....I tried. ;-p

Ængelfolc Jun-04-2011

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1) it's the air that holds them up there not the sky;
2) "air" is now so deeply embedded in English both as noun and verb and in collocations- airborne is itself a Fr/Eng compound - that it would be difficult to replace. Eg "airing cupboard" , "airs and graces" , aircraft, the programs was aired ,,, etc
3) how about "codebreaker", sounds much more english even if code is fr.
4) A "tonguecrafter" is someone who carves tongues,or puts studs in tongues; it's a messy business often bloody. The term is also used for the people who boil and preserve ox tongues, a tasty delicacy favord by the early Saxons.

Ah so plausible!

jayles Jun-04-2011

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"Tonguecrafter" is also a tool attached to a four-cutter which moulds the tongue part of tongue and groove flooring timber.

jayles Jun-04-2011

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I also notice they still want Russian as a language. Guess that's why we were taught Russian в школе не ужели??

jayles Jun-04-2011

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1) I guess one could use "loft" or "heaven" instead of "sky". SKY, however, still means "the upper air; the upper atmosphere of the earth". I don't see it as a stretch for this sense. Words for "air" tend to be words like wind, brightness, sky in I.E. tongues anyway. AIR is a very old borrowing from around 12-1300, where it began to edge out O.E. lyft, luft (today's loft), so maybe it's okay.

AIRCRAFT, AIRWAY, AIR WAR are all Latin-Germanic compounds. We could have Flightcraft, Flightway, and Flight War instead, right? "Airs and Graces"? Isn't that like "pomp and circumstance"? Who needs that? This sense is from the French from 17th/18th c. I would call it "grandstanding and comeliness" or "flaunting and loveliness" or "showboating and lithesomeness", if asked. Why can't one "freshening or drying cupboard" ('cupboard' is another Latin-Germanic compound)?

2) Things would have to change, and other words made or used to tell about these things (if English were to change, of course).

3) How about "war-runebreaker" or "? ;-)

4) I've never heard of this. Isn't this just a "butcher"? Not only did early Saxons enjoy it, but almost all Germanic folks--- still in Germany today. Also, never heard of the tool you mentioned either.

"I also notice they still want Russian as a language." Well, Russia is in the news again, and not in good way. Russian is in good company with the other tongues mentioned. I never learned Russian; maybe I should start.

Ængelfolc Jun-05-2011

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This link isn't about English, but I think it fitting here. It also underscores what I mean by "Der Träger der Kultur sei die Sprache".

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110604/ap_on_re_us/us_postcard_the90_year_dictionary_project

Ængelfolc Jun-05-2011

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The question of what foreign language people should learn is interesting. Clearly for career purposes, the major languages, English, Spanish, Arabic, Mandarin are the most useful. However there is so much romance borrowing over a germanic foundation in english that few non-slav European languages are really foreign. The wordstock is so similar. French and Dutch people rarely have difficulty in writing quite english-sounding english, whereas people from Asia (excluding India) almost always write unidiomatic English in a distinctly non-European style; really foreign. Russian and other slav languages stand midway; although there are noticeable borrowings from french in particular, and the structure is latinate, most of the wordstock seems as alien as hungarian, or mandarin, and thus a great hurdle. Lastly in Russian syllable stress is variable, often changing with wordending. Once one gets beyond the textbooks where stress is marked, knowing where to put the stress becomes an ongoing nightmare. Eg okNO window; okNA of a window; OKna windows etc
However it will light up your chances with slav women!

jayles Jun-05-2011

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@jayles: I cannot speak about Russian, but I do know the Slavic words for beech, larch, and yew trees are borrowed from Germanic.

I do speak Polish (not well, but enough). French sway is easily heard, since Polish has a lot of likeness to French in it's fricatives and nasal vowels. Also, there are a lot of Germanic and French words in Polish. Some German words are: 'chleb'

Ængelfolc Jun-05-2011

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Something else interesting about the Polish tongue fitting to this blog:

According to Iwo Cyprian Pogonowski, "Unabridged Polish dictionaries presently contain some 200,000 entries; one-third of these are foreign adaptations, while about one-fourth are still close to Old Slavonic words."

Seems Polish suffers from the same thing!

Ængelfolc Jun-05-2011

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Well if you could get past the cyrillic script you would find russian quite similar to polish; as one travels west from russia, the language slopes off into ukrainian, by Lviv it's sloping off again into polish, or further south slovak. Psza krev would be "pcov krovj" in Russian.
Much the same happens with german and surrounding tongues, and with what they speak in Barcelona (Catalan?).
This points up that the entire concept of a "pure" language is misplaced. Yes we don't want to be flooded with unnecessary borrowings, but words like "banana" and "potato" would be sensible. (Anglish: "chimpfood" "earthapples" I suppose).
As you may know in the 19th century hungarian, like most Eurolanguages borrowed the word "pianoforte" for the new instrument. However the "Hunglishers" of the day decided they wanted a "pure" hungarian word and created the current word "zongora".
Nice but IMHO unnecessarily separatist. They went on to hungarianise many words several thousand of which survive today, many calques of German eg Fallschirm (oh no that must have been later!) Anyway
"Kálmán Szily presented approx. 10,000 words in his book A magyar nyelvújítás szótára ("Dictionary of Hungarian language reform", vol. 1–2: 1902 and 1908), without aiming to be comprehensive"
I am not at all convinced it was a good idea. Just makes the language so oddball.
I see nothing wrong in Europeans sharing and borrowing words from each other where necessary esp technical words. We do in fact share a common European culture and history and ancestry.
Time for a cuppa!

jayles Jun-05-2011

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PS lifted the hood on my made-in-Australia car and discovered "OPEL " on the engine and german everywhere. Those damn Anglishers at it again!

jayles Jun-05-2011

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Part II Of course this doesn't mean that as Europeans we have to share everything; we can still retain our regional identities and regional culture. Indeed some things like english warm beer, hungarian "langos" (deep fried dough) should definitely not be spread or borrowed at all!

jayles Jun-05-2011

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@jayles: "...the entire concept of a "pure" language is misplaced. Yes we don't want to be flooded with unnecessary borrowings, but words like "banana" and "potato" would be sensible."

Yes, I am of the same mind as you. I guess that everyone means something different by "pure", but it is folly none-the-less. Indeed, Anglo-Saxon (before the 7th century) had few Latin loans that it got through trade before they came to Brittania because of where their homeland sat. They were too far out of Rome's reach.

Once the Anglo-Saxon's came over, the Celtic speakers helped to add about 200 Latin words (like street) to the A.S. wordstock (although, only a few Celtic words such as 'whiskey', 'flannel', 'bog', and a few others).

"Language Purity" movements are not uncommon. You mentioned the Hungarians, but also the Danes had an aggressive movement against French in the 18th and 19th centuries. German did, too, against Latin (and it was successful). English has had several movements over the last 700-800 years off and on. I am all for it, if it thoughtfully gets rid of unnecessary foreign influence.

Technical borrowings needn't be foreign. A good 'byspell' is Television. In German today, one can say "die Television". I find that terrible. There is nothing wrong with "das Fernsehen" or "der Fernseher". Icelandic has "sjónvarp". In German, we also say "der Rundfunk" for radio, broadcasting. Icelandic says "útvarp". AUTO is German (can be said auto), but the true word is "der Kraftwagen". Others in German are: cellular/mobile phone "das Handy"; airplance "das Flugzeug"; computer "der Rechner"; photograph "die Aufnahme, das Bild"; electricity "der Strom", asf. So, technology words do not have to necessarily be borrowed.

"...my made-in-Australia car and discovered "OPEL " on the engine..." You must have a HOLDEN (Opel is branded as Vauxhall in England)! Let me add "insult to injury": Opel is subsidiary of General Motors. ;-)

Ængelfolc Jun-06-2011

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Ængelfolc:

This site concerns itself with English, which is a living language, and a real one. Anglish is imaginary, like Esperanto or Atlantean (or Antlantish?). Have you an issue that is relevant to today?

dogreed Jun-07-2011

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@dogreed:

Thank you for asking, but I don't know why you are asking me this. Read my writings on this blog for the answers you seek. "Global-English" (being the World Lingua Franca) is a real issue for English. I'd say that is one of the greatest issues of English today. And, it goes way beyond the corruption of the tongues itself; there are socio-economic overtone's to deal with. What's more, English's "global language status" comes at the great expense of other languages, threatening other tongues survival---English included.

"Living languages" are to gain new vocabularies and ideas; there is no strife about this. To my mind, "living language" does not mean "take on as many and as much of all other languages in the World", in the misguided notion that diversity, acceptance, and cultural understanding will be achieved. These ideas are both dangerous and foolish.

Furthermore, I am not an "Anglisher", rather I am for English (Ænglisc). I am with you about "Anglish"; I have likened it to Tolkien's "Elvish".

Please expound on your question. Thanks.

Ængelfolc Jun-07-2011

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@dogreed: "This site concerns itself with English..."

While the site www.painintheenglish.com does deal with English, these rolling remarks within this site deal with the question of Anglish and its relevance to English growth and development.

Ængelfolc Jun-07-2011

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