Proofreading Service - Pain in the English
Proofreading Service - Pain in the English

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Proofreading Service - Pain in the English
Proofreading Service - Pain in the English

Your Pain Is Our Pleasure

24-Hour Proofreading Service—We proofread your Google Docs or Microsoft Word files. We hate grammatical errors with passion. Learn More

“Anglish”

Has anyone come across “Anglish”? Anglish or Saxon is described as “...a form of English linguistic purism, which favours words of native (Germanic) origin over those of foreign (mainly Romance and Greek) origin.”

Does anybody have an opinion or thoughts on “Anglish”...

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Comments

@Ængelfolc

All I mean, is that I was surprised you didn't write something like:

"Sterling" is most likely from 'steorra' + '-ling > steroling > sterling meaning "small, little star (starling)"

Most folk understand the '-ling' suffix to mean little (goose - gosling etc) but then again, the -ling wasn't always a dim. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=ling&searchmode=none


Maybe it was too obvious to mention, but I wondered why with 'vallen' that you wrote 'embankment' without hinting also at vallen's link to 'wall' (in an embankment sense).

Stanmund Apr-20-2011

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@Stanmund:

An oversight, that's all. It is rather straightforward, though, isn't it? Well, here you are:

Vall (pl. Vallen) from Germanic *wallaz, from L. uallum (likely borrowed in the late 5th c., along with 'street'). Cf. Old English ƿeall (weall, weal), Old Saxon 'Wal', German 'Wall', Dutch/ Frisian 'Wal'.

See: Walton, Wallsend, Walford, Wallmer (in Kent, means 'sea wall'), Anglo-Saxon Wea(l)lingaford

It is another Latin word I think is okay to stay.

Ængelfolc Apr-20-2011

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Another root for "Sterling":

A much better etymology (I think) is given by Frank Stenton and Michael Dolley in their book "Anglo Saxon Coins". It answers all of the historical and linguistic questions almost beyond strife.

The new coin minted after 1066 was heavier, of a stable weight, and of better metal quality than other money coins. This would have meant that a new special name was needed, like the unchanging integrity of the 'aureus solidus' minted under Constantine.

The thought put forth follows thusly:

L. solidus translated to Gk. στερεός (stēreos, 'hard,stiff, solid'. Cf. austere) < from Indo-Germanic *st(h)er (stiff, rigid), cf. ME/ Scottish dialect 'steer' (13th c., 'strong, stout'), North English dialect ster, stere, steer (strong, stout), from unattested OE *stēre or *stiēre (strong, rigid, fixed).

So, “stere-peninga” (Anglo-Norman penny, so as to distinguish from the coins in France) > "*ster+(l)ing" > "ster(l)ing".

Compare "farthing" (feorða(n)-peninga > feorðling, feorðung > farthing, meaning "feorða (fourth) 'of a' peninga (penny)").

Sterling is first found in writings around 1078 AD. The words 'esterlin' and 'sterilensis, sterilensium' were brought over into Old French/Normaund and Latin from Ænglisc.

See also: (Sterling) by Philip Grierson, in: DOLLEY, R.H.M. (ed.) Anglo Saxon Coins, Section XV. London, Methuen, 1961; “The Weights and Measures of England” (Science Museum, London, 1987) by Professor R. D. Connor.

Even with this it is still a Germanic-English word.

Ængelfolc Apr-20-2011

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@jayles: "I must be halfway extinct then..."

All it takes, is for 'cultural relativism' to take hold, and for the lead culture to breakdown because of severely misguided guilt or some other such nonsense.

Why should it be wrong for all new-comers to be mindful of the culture of any given land? The short answer? It is not and never has been.

Has this happened where you live?

Ængelfolc Apr-20-2011

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"...whatever you call William's mates and offspring..."

Guillaume le Bâtard and his lieutenants were mainly Normans, Flemish, French, and Bretons.

The offspring of these 'Normans' were Anglo-Normans > their offspring were English.

"Norman-French" is one of the ways to name the tongue they spoke.

Ængelfolc Apr-20-2011

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Ængelfolc: Compare "farthing" (feorða(n)-peninga > feorðling, feorðung > farthing, meaning "feorða (fourth) 'of a' peninga (penny)").

So 'farthing' means 'fourth' of a penny, 'firkin' seems to have something to do with 'fourth' too.

Somehow I don't mind 'fourth' but not that keen on the spelling of 'four' wish it was something stronger looking like 'fow' I must have something against any false-cognates with French.

Stanmund Apr-20-2011

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@Stanmund:

'Firkin' means "fourth of a barrel of brew" or "half of a kilderkin". (1400-1450 ferdekyn, ferdkyn, firdekyn, also ferthekin). It is from Middle Dutch *vierdekijn" (vierde 'fouth' + -kijn dim. suffix, meaning "little fourth". A 'kilderkin' (O.Dutch 'kindeken' or 'kinneken', 1570. kylderkin, which is about 81.83 L) was an old English unit of volume equal to half a barrel or two firkins of ale or beer.

"Four" (foh-ur) was 'fēower' in Old English. Cf. Old Frisian fiūwer, Old Norse fjōrir.THe word four is fine. Just say it like an Icelander "foh-ūrr" by deepening the 'u' and rolling the 'r' really hard. Better?

Ængelfolc Apr-20-2011

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I have to build up some tolerance and stop bullying good English words. Four is back in the good book.

Instead of 'fir sapling' or even 'firling, 'firkin' could (if it wanted to) mean 'a young fir tree' The -kin dim. in names like Wilkinson, Atkinson, Hopkinson, Hodgkinson, Wilkins, is meant to have been gotten from England's nearest continental neighbours the Flemish, so what nowadays English words bare the -kin suffix from old English like 'kilderkin' rather than Dutch. Whatever happened to English's own -kins?

Stanmund Apr-21-2011

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Wilkins, Wilkinson (Anglo-Norman meaning "Son of the Child of William", from the Normanized Germanic personal name William + kin (dim suffix meaning 'child, small, offspring', + son "son of")

Atkinson (Anglo-Scots, from Atkin, Aitken (Scot), Aiken (N.Ireland var. of Aitken) meaning 'little Adam, 'Child of Adam' + son)

Hopkinson (English-Norman from Hobb, Hobbs, Hobbes (pet form of Germanic personal name Robert) + kin (dim. suffix) + son)

Hodge, Hodges, Hodgkin, Hodgkins, Hodgkinson (Anglo-Norman, from Hodge (either from Germanic personal name Roger or the nickname Hocg, Hogge 'hog' +kin +son)

No Dutch here....just Anglo-Norman Germanic names.

Ængelfolc Apr-21-2011

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That's what I think too Ængelfolc but look...!

-kin diminutive suffix, first attested mid-13c. in proper names adopted from Flanders and Holland, probably from M.Du. -kin, properly a double-diminutive, from -k + -in. Equivalent to Ger. -chen. Also borrowed in O.Fr. as -quin, where it usually has a bad sense.

This suffix, which is almost barren in French, has been more largely developed in the Picard patois, which uses it for new forms, such as verquin, a shabby little glass (verre); painequin, a bad little loaf (pain); Pierrequin poor little Pierre, &c. ["An Etymological Dictionary of the French Language," transl. G.W. Kitchin, Oxford, 1878]

Stanmund Apr-21-2011

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Ængelfolc: "Has this happened where you live?" Immigration issues and cultural swamping are simply side-effects of underlying overpopulation; but yes the current "politically correct" climate does not help. One moment it's Gastarbeiter and then it's muliticulturalism, and we find out, as per Angela Merkel, that it does not work for us. Arthur, Harold Godwin, both had a different approach to immigration!
One has to look the brite side though, at least my bank offers the choice of Cantonese or English when I telephone them. I choose English, of course.
But as time passes it all seems trivial....

jayles Apr-21-2011

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Ængelfolc: one approach to Anglish would be to look at the non-Germanic words by frequency. For example "information" and "government" are in the top 3000 words in English. Are we going to change or accept them? (and inform, govern, governor information technology IT information gap, governor-general and so forth - it's not just the word it's the collocations too)

jayles Apr-21-2011

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One must not get obsessed by immigration issues, for we all came "out of Africa", except of course those 'Nieanderthaler' living near junction 29 on the 'A' drei.

jayles Apr-21-2011

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oops junction 19

jayles Apr-21-2011

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The diminutive suffix -kin, of Teutonic origin, is found early in German and Dutch, but there is no trace of it in Old English.

Ængelfolc Apr-21-2011

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@Stanmund:

The ending -kin does not make any of those you mentioned a "Dutch" name. That is like saying the -(s)son ending makes them Scandinavian. English names are a mish-mash, too, of many bits. If the names formed in England, or the name shape developed in England, then they are English.

"...first attested mid-13c. in proper names adopted from Flanders and Holland..." names the time and lands from which the ending comes from. It does not mean that all names with "-kin" are Dutch, Flemish, or Frisian.

If you find it out of bounds, use the Old English dim. endings -oc, -uc or Old Saxon -ik in its stead.

So, Wilkinson -> Willikson, Willocson; Atkinson -> Atikson; Hodgkinson -> Hodgucson; Hopkinson -> Hopocson.

The endings are still found in 'bullock' (OE bulluc, 'young bull'), 'hillock' (hilloc, small hill), bollocks (OE beallucs), buttock (OE buttuc), and so on and so forth.

Ængelfolc Apr-21-2011

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I have always liked the -kin suffix. They have always been inbounds. I understand them better now.

Not so much -y (as in bothy, but along with -ling, -ock is another dim. ending I like. Always wondered how to Anglish 'Kitchenette' - 'kitchenkin' seems to work better than 'kitchenock' or 'kitch' (think titch) - indeed maybe 'titch' could be worked as a dim. suffix too: 'a titchmarsh' 'a titchwain' 'a cottitch'!

Look here: The Diary Of C. Jeames De La Pluche With His Letters
By William Makepeace Thackeray _ the word 'cottitch' is used instead of 'cottage' Seems 'cottage' may been English from head to toe: 'cot+titch' cot(tage) = cot(titch)

http://books.google.com/books?id=QbXVW9gX3HoC&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=cottitch&source=bl&ots=UuGgVnYKDP&sig=HQlLYShQmYG3PTiS6IbNwJNzXcI&hl=en&ei=n5CxTcnnBMmO8gPNypyWDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=cottitch&f=false

I know (cott)age and (ham)let are Ger origin but still like better something like 'cottock' for 'small village' or 'cottage'

-ock dim. ending looks like it works best on words twinned with 'll' and 'tt' - maybe 'ilock' for (islet/isle/small island) and 'billock for (small headland)

Stanmund Apr-22-2011

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Well I would love to make Anglish work, and there are good substitutes for some common words like "person"; however there are also some common words such as "use" for which there is no ready allpurpose substitute. I don't believe that remanufacturing words for OE such as "benote" will do; it just makes the whole thing unintelligible to the average reader. Equally, subbstituting "wield", for me at least automatically brings to mind a picture of some Scots chief wielding a claymore, so "you need to wield a screwdriver" suggests impalement to me; it is a matter of connotations. Secondly it is not always possible to remanufacture all the derived words - so user, useful, useless, useable, use (noun) might come out as "wielder", "wieldful", "wieldless" "wieldable" - which are largely unintelligible to someone on the Clapham omnibus. "Workable" is not an exact substitute for useable either. So it's no USE trying to substitute everything.
On the other hand, there are many low frequency words that could just be dumped: this from Wikikpedia:
As with Latinate/Germanic doublets from the Norman period, the use of Latinate words in the sciences gives us pairs with a native Germanic noun and a Latinate adjective:

* animals: ant/formic, bee/apian, bird/avian, crow/corvine, cod/gadoid, carp/cyprine, fish/piscine, gull/larine, wasp/vespine, butterfly/papilionaceous, worm/vermian, spider/arachnid, snake/anguine, tortoise (or turtle)/testudinal, cat/feline, rabbit/cunicular, hare/leporine, dog/canine, deer/cervine, reindeer/rangiferine, fox/vulpine, wolf/lupine, goat/caprine, sheep/ovine, swan/cygnean, duck/anatine, starling/sturnine, goose/anserine, ostrich/struthious, horse/equine, chicken/gallinaceous, cattle/bovine, pig/porcine, whale/cetacean, kangaroo/macropine, ape/simian, bear/ursine, man/human or hominid (gender specific: man/masculine, woman/feminine).
* physiology: head/capital, ear/aural, tooth/dental, tongue/lingual, lips/labial, neck/cervical, finger/digital, hand/manual, arm/brachial, foot/pedal, sole of the foot/plantar, leg/crural, eye/ocular or visual, mouth/oral, chest/pectoral, nipple/papillary, brain/cerebral, mind/mental, nail/ungual, hair/pilar, heart/cardial, lung/pulmonary, bone/osteotic, liver/hepatic, kidney/renal, blood/sanguine.
* astronomy: moon/lunar, sun/solar, earth/terrestrial, star/stellar.
* sociology: son or daughter/filial, mother/maternal, father/paternal, brother/fraternal, sister/sororal, wife/uxorial, uncle/avuncular.
* other: book/literary, edge/marginal, fire/igneous, water/aquatic, wind/vental, ice/glacial, boat/naval, house/domestic, door/portal, town/urban, light/optical, sight/visual, tree/arboreal, marsh/paludal, sword/gladiate, king/regal, fighter/military, bell/tintinnabulary.

Note that this is a common linguistic phenomenon, called a stratum in linguistics – one sees analogous phenomena in Japanese (borrowing from Chinese for scientific vocabulary, and now English), and in Hindi/Urdu (Sanskrit, with many Persian borrowings), among many others.

So we need some pragmatic solutions IMHO.

jayles Apr-23-2011

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Here is a list of latinate words included in the top 250 oftenest words in English:
person
use
place
states
general
part
during
govern
course
fact
system
form
program
present
government
possible
group
order
face
interest
case
problem
national
social
president
power
country

It would be really important either to find acceptable-to-everyone insteadwords
or faute de mieux just keep them on .

jayles Apr-23-2011

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So let us take an example: "place" eg your place or mine?
Just looking in a thesaurus for words in lieu we have: (as verbs)
put.........norse
rest...........rester in french
lay ..............Ger liegen
leave ..........?? strong verb so Germanic
positon........french
consign...........french consignee
identify.............french
file .....................ah! don't think thats english
locate............latin locus
arrange .............frankish via french
categorise ................not germanic
rank.....................Rang in german?
Now what you're asking everyone to do is choose a Germanic substitute. But how is the layman or woman supposed to know which is which? (No-one is going to spend all day looking them up). People would HAVE to have an automatic Anglish checker like a spellchecker.
I've given you my guesses off the top of my head; have I got them all right? Is anyone but a fanatic going to know the difference? One would need simpler guidelines like no words with latin prefixes or suffixes. C'est tout!

jayles Apr-24-2011

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"file" is of course "NO-NO" french when it pertains to a filing system in an office; but "YES-OK" Germanic when one is filing one's toenails.
Straightforward enough!

jayles Apr-24-2011

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"So let us take an example: "place" eg your place or mine?"

place (space): abode, dwelling, home (stead), house, flat (O.E. flet)

place (rank): standing

place (job): work(stead)

LEAVE is Germanic.

place (locate): allot (Frankish), store, set, stow, put, park, lodge (Frankish *laubja).

place (order): rank, reckon, group

place (identify): finger, peg, name


People already know these words, They have to choose them over the Latin-French.

Ængelfolc Apr-25-2011

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As I wrote earlier, 'group' is not a Latinate word. It is Germanic from P.Gmc. *kruppaz.

FYK (For Your Knowledge)

Ængelfolc Apr-25-2011

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Ængelfolc: your putforwards are better than mine. But how are people supposed to know which are germanic and which are latin? Obvious to you and and everyone in the Sprachschuetzpolizei but not to your average Joe.
Sorry I forgot what you said about group, but that illustrates the problem. On the other hand I seem to have car keys but no car. Anfang Alzheimers?

jayles Apr-25-2011

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Ængelfolc: you should be proud of me: I have actually used "wordstock" instead of "vocabulary" in a report to my boss: we shall see if it is understood or not.
However, it is so automatic to use Latinate words: for example:
"NB Continuous and final assessment criteria need clarifying and finalizing"
becomes:
'Ongoing and endtesting standards need to be made clear and ??????"
Can you suggest something (better)??

jayles Apr-27-2011

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Or better
"Ongoing and end rating benchmarks need to be made clear and wrapped up." >??

jayles Apr-28-2011

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@jayles:

Ich bin Stolz drauf! You are right about folks choosing Latin words without having to think about them. It is how most of us were taught. Think back to when you were learning these "higher" words...you already spoke English and were taught to say this instead of this . In short, when we want to speak a cleaner English, we are trying to undo our educational brainwashing.

The English words that you wrote in stead of the Latinate ones are good choices. Thoughts like "final assessment" are somewhat new, so it is tougher to find other English words to mean the same thing.

"Ongoing and end-rating benchmarks need to be...

...spelled out better and settled upon."
...more straightforward and buttoned up."
...worked out and pulled together."
...straightened out and acknowledged."
...ironed out and set forth."
...better broken down and standardized."
...more thoroughly understood and set up."
...made more understandable and steadfast."
...able to be better understood and set in stone."
...sharpened up and given standing."

I hope this helps you. More later...

Ængelfolc Apr-28-2011

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@jayles: "...I have been wondering (as English do) whether this is just a hobby, or there is some "real" or "career-related" purpose in your quest?"

Germanic tongues are more than a hobby for me. I am, as of now, an amateur etymologist and Germanic philologist. I am also looking into writing a book or two with very narrow focii with a few Germanic tongues.

Germanic Studies is my thing.

Ængelfolc Apr-28-2011

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Drawn to a wonderful wall poster of UK sea fish in a chip shop the other day. Poster had all the kinds of fish bearing both their English names and other translations underneath. I was rushing (so might of missed some) but remember:

Icelandic
Faeroese(!)
Norwegian
Danish
German
Dutch
French
Portuguese
Spanish
Italian

Clocked most (if not all) of the English names when lacking a cognate with either the Dutch or German would instead match the Scandinavian ones. Clocked that a fair few fish bore sundry namesakes in English - should be some good English replacements for the likes of /sole/ and /plaice/ etc amongst the regional sundriness of names for fish in the UK. Most keening, was lots of the German translations for the fish ended in '-butt' Got me thinking about the '-but' in 'Halibut' seems that '-but' in English meant any kind of 'flatfish' back then, and still dose in German. Unlike the English, the Germans have (when ever needed) gone out their way to keep their language ordered and German. All flatfish in German seem to have a '-butt' ending. Indeed it would be better if all the names of flatfish in English followed 'Halibut' and ended in the '-but' ending too. Can't hurt to make use of an ending that hints at the ilk of fish. Halibut is already an everyday name, if all the flatfish names followed the O.E. '-but' ending wouldn't it be more scientific and ordered? Anyway, should be loads of other names knocking about to replace: Sole, Plaice, Dab, Turbot(?) Even the Keltic and Norse ones in all likelihood have English namesakes out there. Why not something like: Halibut, Flukebut (Fluke), Flounderbut (Flounder), Brillthbut (Brill), Scaldbut (Scaldfish), Knotbut (Topknot) Might sound dodgy at first, but a lot of fish have more than one name, and Halibut is a household name unlike the others, so sticking on '-but' shouldn't rock the boat that much and should be welcomed by science, fisheries and food sellers. Any replacement for Plaice, Sole and Dab should at least bear a '-but' ending.


Halibut - /large flatfish, early 15c., perhaps from hali "holy" (see holy) + butte "flatfish;" supposedly so called from its being eaten on holy days (cf. cognate Du. heilbot, Low Ger. heilbutt, Swed. helgeflundra, Dan. helleflynder). The second element is a general Germanic name applied to various kinds of flat fishes; cf. O.Swed. but "flatfish," M.E. butt (c.1300), perhaps ultimately from PIE *bhauh- "to strike/

Turbot - either Scand. by way of O.Fr. or from L. turbo

Flounder - either a misshaping of O.F /founder/ or Du. /flodderen/ 'to flop about'

Plaice - /from O.Fr. plaise, from L.L. platessa, perhaps related to Gk. platys “broad,” or from the root of plat- “flat.”/

Sole - /'flatfish' from O.Fr. sole, from L. solea "a kind of flatfish,"/

Fluke - /'flatfish' O.E. floc "flatfish," related to O.N. floke "flatfish," flak "disk, floe" (see flake). The parasite worm (1660s) so called from resemblance of shape/

Dab - /etymology of the name dab is unclear, but the modern English use seems to originate from the Middle English dabbe.[3] It is first recorded in the late 16th century/[

Brill - (believed from Cornish: /brythel/ note Welsh: /brith/)

Topknot - never heard of it before. Name itself seems a bit on the newen side to my earholes.

Scaldfish - name believed to be from looking like it has been dipped in scalding water

Witch - (also Whiff, Megrim) http://www.wordswarm.net/dictionary/megrim.html ?

Stanmund Apr-29-2011

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that should be...

*Turbot - either Scand. or from L. turbo by way of O.Fr.*

Stanmund Apr-29-2011

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@Stanmund:

There are a few etymologists and dictionary that put forth that "turbot" might be from the Latin "turbō" trying to link the shape (a Rhombus) of the fish to the Latin. One has to only look at the root of the word Halibut (Dutch Heilbot) to see this is highly unlikely. Also, most of the sea words in Normaund come from the Scandinavian tongues.

"Turbot" is most likely two words (Germanic compound): tur (thorn (törn) + bot (butt "flat fish"))

German: Steinbutt
Dutch: Tarbot
Swedish: Stenbotta, Butta, Botta (but also Piggvar)

I have learned to ALWAYS question boldly when words are said to be from Latin-French roots. Many times I have been shocked by what I found out by digging past the veneer (from W.Gmc. *frumjan. See?).

Those who unthinkingly aside any meanings in favor of the Latin or French are stand out (usually egg-headed academics of Academia) and are untrustworthy.

Ængelfolc Apr-30-2011

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I meant, "Those who unthinkingly set aside any meanings in favor of the Latin or French stand out (usually egg-headed academics of Academia) and are untrustworthy.

Ængelfolc Apr-30-2011

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BTW, most "academics" are Francophiles and Latinophiles.

Ængelfolc Apr-30-2011

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@ Stanmund:

Flounder (the flat fish) is is from Normaund 'flondre', which itself is from O.N. flythra.

Ængelfolc Apr-30-2011

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"BTW, most "academics" are Francophiles and Latinophiles."
Is that what it takes to get a Latino woman?

jayles Apr-30-2011

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@jayles: Pretty much....

Ængelfolc Apr-30-2011

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A whole writeup of someone thoughts on the etymology of Turbot...

http://www.staff.hum.ku.dk/mjd/etcib/turbot.html

Stanmund May-01-2011

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1) 'The holy trinity' -> 'the holy threesome' ???? (but it sounds like a romp)
2) Usage of "of"; as I understand it this was used to translate the french "de" in both its partitive and possessive meanings by academics and church people from the middle english world. However it really is a non-germanic usage, and doubles the grammar,...
for instance: the sister of the duchess of York - > the Yorkduchess's sister.
(and what about duchess?)

jayles May-01-2011

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Wlyan138, if you are as wordful in Anglish as you seem and if you wish to further its note/brook(-ness) and help it gain exposure (outsetness?) to the (Englishspeaking) world, I suggest (and would like for you to) overbring/translate Wikipedia writ/article into Anglish.

If you want to start with topics closely akin to English, Anglish, or Anglo-Saxon like yore/history/yore and speechcraft/linguistics, ok. But I suggest overbringing/translating writs about nowa/modern day things. Instead of overbringing the Wiki writ on the Norman Infall into Anglish, what about World War I and II instead? Overbring or write writs about nowa happenings (current events) and put them on Wikipedia. I would love to read about the "War on Terror" and other nowa happenigs in Anglish

Adam2 May-03-2011

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1) This is an example of a word that should stay because the meaning is tied to Christianity. The idea developed from the church, and was brought to folks of all stripes. Although, if one really wants to Teutonicize it, The Holy Three-in-One, The Holy Threefold, Godhead...

2) Yes, 'of' is French 'du', Polish '-ski', German 'von' (from 'x' land, kingdom, house), 'zu' (names the land which is ruled over by that noble), or sometimes 'von und zu' (from and ruler of...), Dutch 'van', asf. How is it "non-Germanic usage"?

3) Duchess, Duke, Count, Viceroy, Vassal, Serfs and the like were all outside English at one time. The Normans brought these ranks along with the idea of the Feudalism (from Gothic *faihu) to England. It was the way that the Franks had put their society together. It was a medieval pyramid scheme: only one guy wins.

Earl/Jarl, Baron, Baronet, Knight, King, Queen, Marquis, Margrave, all have Germanic roots.

Instead of:

Duke---> English could use Herzog (Old English Heretoga 'army leader'. Cf. Old Frisian hertoga leader of an army, duke; Old Saxon heritogo, Old High German herizoho, herizogo, Old Norse hertogi)

Count---> Earl/Jarl

And so forth.

Ængelfolc May-03-2011

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Wlyan138:

One of the Anglo-Saxon ways to speak about 'terror' was with the O.E. word 'folcegesa': "something that causes fear among the folks".

O.E. folc "people" + O.E. eġesa "to terrorize, to greatly frighten (from O.E. eġesian "to terrify").

O.E. eġe is Mod.E. awe (with some bearing on O.E. eġe from ON agi "fear" as seen in the Mid.Eng aghe).

So it would be >> Folkawe = "to terrify, terrorize people". Maybe, Folkfear? Folkslaughter? Call it what it is....today 'terror' is less about fear and more about death.

Just trying to help....

Ængelfolc May-03-2011

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The Trinity as spoken about in Old English

"Fæder and sunu and frofre gæst"..."in þrīnesse þrymme wealdeð". (note the single form of 'wealdan' is used)

Trinity in Old English is written in many ways, such as...

...þrīnesse (ðrynesse , ðrīnesse); OHG thrinissi, ON threneng
...þrȳnes (þrīnes)
...ānnesse, ānnes (OHG einissi, ON eineng, Ger. einig)


"...ne synd þæt þreo godas þriwa genemned, ac is an god, se ðe ealle hafað, þa þry naman þinga gerynum..."

"...þonne seo þrȳnes þrymsittende in ānnesse..." (727 AD)

So, threeness, thriceness in today's English, maybe?

Ængelfolc May-04-2011

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@Stanmund: "...should be loads of other names knocking about to replace: Sole, Plaice..."

Plaice >> O.E. fage, facg

Sole >> O.E. floc

Salmon >> O.E. læx (lox)

Sparus Aurata (Gilt-headed Bream) >> O.E. ðunorbodu

Gudgeon (Gobio) >> O.E. blæge

Dolphin >> O.E. mereswin

Moray Eel >> O.E. merenæddra

Mullet >> O.E. heardra

Sturgeon >> O.E. styria

They are out there...

Ængelfolc May-04-2011

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I forgot...

...Trout >> O.E. sceóta
...Pike >> O.E. hacod (lit. "hooked fish")

...Mussel >> O.E. musla (OE musla (also the sense of 'little mouse') is not from the Latin musculus, but is an original Germanic word. Both the L. and the Gmc are from PIE *muHs-)

...Torniculus (type of sea snail) >> O.E. pinewincla (fused in modern English with 'periwinkle', but is not from Latin. It is an original Germanic word.)

Ængelfolc May-04-2011

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Often it is said that Ænglisc lacks richness of wordstock, that without Latin and French words, Ænglisc speakers did not have words for lofty thoughts and ideas. Well, the more I learn, the more I see that this is wrong! Take a look...

Treatise >> O.E. Lǣdenbōc

Reptiles >> O.E. Nǣdercynn

Mutability >> O.E. Āwendedlicnes

to be Proud/ Arrogant >> O.E. Āhlǣnan

Despondency >> O.E. Mōdsēoc

Agriculture >> O.E. Eorþtilung

Proclamation >> O.E. Frēabodian

I think Ænglisc is more truthful. Look at how the Anglosaxons spoke of taxes >> O.E. heregild ("army money"). The name showed what the money was for!

I have said it before, Ænglisc never needed words to be brought over from other tongues. Latin-French words are a ghostly yoke on Ænglisc. The mark of the Norman Overlords and academic snobbery.

What more does one need to be moved to speak true English? More later...

Ængelfolc May-04-2011

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Ængelfolc: "Three-In-One" was the brand name of an lubricatigt oil in my youth. I used it on my bike. It is the connotations which give us cause for mirth.

Re "of": I wasn't very clear: I was thinking of phrases such as "the book of John", "a book of poetry" , "trousers of leather", where "of" is used to introduce a descriptive phrase, french styl, instead of something more Lederhosen-ish.

Finally, more travail, seeking to explicate the word "introduce" to a student, I flipped back to the beginning of the unit, only to find some smart bloke had used "lead-in" instead; and "foreword" at the beginning of the book. Now while it's nice to be anglish-minded, "introduce" and "introduction" are both in the top one thousand words of modern english and people ned to understand them. But so the evil contagion of Anglish smote......

Finally finally, I do struggle a bit with OE, never having learnt it and all,
лушче по-русский

jayles May-04-2011

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@jayles:

"three-in-one" see my other writings on the Trinity.

The way "of" works in your examples is perfectly good Germanic stæfcræft (grammar). Just as an Englishman can also say "leather trousers", nowadays a Dutchman can say "broeken van leer", but "lederhose" when talking about the German kind. A Swede could say "läderbyxor" or "byxor av läder"; A Norwegian "lærbukser" or "bukse av lær"...and so on.

It is understood that Globalish has to be taught when one is a teacher. One has to show what "introduce" means. I get it. It's a job. It doesn't make it easier to take.

Glad to know that someone wrote the English words for "introduction" in the book! LOL!

Sorry, I do not read Cyrillic, but there are many good books on Old English. Old English is not really needed to speak true English. All one needs is a thesaurus and an English etymological dictionary.

Cheers!

Ængelfolc May-04-2011

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"Old English is not really needed to speak true English." Oh thank goodness!!
I have always found modern languages more useful, unless of course one wishes to be a priest, although once or twice I have taught latin roots for academic words, only to be met with glazed-over cold-cod eyes from the students. Retirement beckons....

jayles May-04-2011

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@jayles:

Too cheeky...you always are writing that Anglish cannot be understood by the masses. I was only putting forth that there are words today that can be said instead of the Latinate ones. And, the best way to find out which ones those are is to look them up with a thesaurus and an English etymological dictionary. Most folks wouldn't take (or have) the time, but this a way true English can be brought back.

As for modern languages being more useful, I think they are no more useful that the older ones, like Old English. Learning Latin and Old English will help in broadening anyone's understanding of what we know today as English. Its not needful to learn the old to speak good and true English. That's all I was saying.

Ængelfolc May-05-2011

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In case one was wondering what the words in today's English literally look like:

Treatise >> O.E. Lǣdenbōc >> "Latin book"

Reptiles >> O.E. Nǣdercynn >> "Netherkin"

Mutability >> O.E. Āwendedlicnes >> "Shiftable likeness"

to be Proud/ Arrogant >> O.E. Āhlǣnan >> "to own + to lend"

Despondency >> O.E. Mōdsēoc >> "Mood sick"

Agriculture >> O.E. Eorþtilung >> "Earth tilling"

Proclamation >> O.E. Frēabodian >> "Leader announcement"

Ængelfolc May-05-2011

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Some Folk Names in Old English:

Norþmandisc >> Norman

Normandig >> Normandy

Norþscottas >> Scots

Norþwēalcynn >> Bretons, Welsh

Norþlēode, Anglþēod >> Anglii

Eotalware >> Italians

Lǣdenware, Rōmw(e)alhe, Rōmāne, Rōmware >> Romans

Langaland, Denemearc >> Denmark

Frankland, Francrīce >> France

Francan >> French folks

Eotenas >> Jutes

Swēoþēod >> Swedish folks

Swēoland, Swēorīce >> Sweden

þā Deniscan >> the Danes

Dene >> Danes

Ængelfolc May-05-2011

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"Instead of:

Duke---> English could use Herzog (Old English Heretoga 'army leader'. Cf. Old Frisian hertoga leader of an army, duke; Old Saxon heritogo, Old High German herizoho, herizogo, Old Norse hertogi)

Count---> Earl/Jarl

And so forth"

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


Herzog/Heretoga/Hertugi = 'Hertug' in Danish, so maybe 'Here(s)tug' in nowadays English.

(Here)ford, tug, 'tugger' 'tug of war' 'tug of here' 'war tug' 'war cog' 'heretug' 'herestug' (?)

'drag queen' drag king' ''drag here' 'heredrag' 'Hardraw Force/Foss, Yorkshire' (?)

'kill tug' i.e 'killing machine' (?) etymology of name 'kellogg' rather than 'kill hog' (?)

p.s:

guessing German 'Herr' is from Herzog

how about 'tugger' making a good shortened name for 'heretug'

Stanmund May-06-2011

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Furthermore what about 'sprog' in 'army sprog' -- 'here sprog' ?

Stanmund May-06-2011

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@Stanmund:

"Herzog" has Here, heer "army" in it. "Herr" nor "Here,Heer" is not from "Herzog".

Herr Gothic harjis, Danish hær, German heer, O.E. here (also fyrd), Old Saxon heri.

English 'harry' (to ravage) is from OE hergian (to destroy, lay waste to) with bearing from Norse herja (OE herg- + ON herja).

Herr "gentleman, sir, superior, master, lord" is from P.Gmc. *hairaz "old, venerable" >> ON hárr "gray", herra "to knight", OE hār, OHG hēr, Old Saxon hērro, Gothic hais.

"how about 'tugger' making a good shortened name for 'heretug'" I do not think so.

Ængelfolc May-06-2011

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@Stanmund: "Furthermore what about 'sprog' in 'army sprog' -- 'here sprog' ?"

Look up the way in which this word is meant in Australian slang. I hardly think it a good fit for your meaning.

Why try to make a new word when 'heretoga' already is an English word? The words 'here' (army), 'herebert' (skillful army general), 'hereberga' (army barracks), 'heregyld, heregeld,heregeold' (military tribute), herewǣpen (war weapon), herewic (military encampment) asf, are all Anglosaxon (English) words that sadly were put aside. 'Heretoga' is an everyday Teutonic word. Today, 'here' is at the roots of the verbs harry and harrow.

Ængelfolc May-07-2011

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Ængelfolc: "Most folks wouldn't take (or have) the time," (to find real enlish words)
I agree. Absolument!
"Most folks" wouldn't even have the inclination either. They are not exactly marching on the streets demanding a return to anglosaxon roots, are they? How might we change this?
Twoothly, (as owls say) who are "most folks"? I take it you meant native english speakers. IMHO they are in danger of being swamped by waves of immigrants, in much the same way as the Celts were after the Romans left England.
We should also think about how everyone is going to be fed too. When I was born there were less than 2 billion homids on this planet, now there are 7 billion and we are probably heading for over 9 billion in the next few decades. Given the limits of our current agriculture to produce enough fodder, how many are going to care about which word is really Saxon or not?
As Karl Marx said: Give them the means of self-destruction, and they will surely use it.
Lastly I use "put forward" instead of "suggest" as it already exists as a phrasal verb.
Denk mal daran!

jayles May-07-2011

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It's funny how "hercog" is in hungarian and I never consciously connected it with German. I must be a right herbert!

jayles May-07-2011

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@jayles: "When I was born there were less than 2 billion homids on this planet, now there are 7 billion "

If this is true, you should be around 83+ years old. Hmmm.

I have read that the "Day of 7 Billion" is to either be 26 Aug 2011-July 2012. And? What can be done to stop the population from growing? What ever happened to "natural selection"? Steve Jones (University College London)has put forth that humans are "10,000 times more common"...so he means that there should only be around 700,000 human beings? Paul Ehrlich (writer of the book,"The Population Bomb") said that "We [humans being] will breed ourselves into oblivion." Really? Do tell...

Of course, the "father" of this idea, as we all know, was Thomas Malthus' "An Essay on the Principle of Population as it Affects the Future Improvements of Society, with Remarks on the Speculations of M. Godwin, M. Condorcet and Other Writers".

Look on the bright side, if Japan continues with their "anti-human" policies, by the year 3000, only 500 Japanese will be living! ;-) That's about a 99.999608027594851322044528065224% reduction in the Japanese population! Wow!

Think about this, most women in European countries are NOT helping those countries (Spain, England, Germany, Denmark, asf) maintain the population. Europe is not doing itself, or the World, any noble service. In fact, 83 countries and territories (about 44% of the World population) are thought to be in the "below-replacement fertility" mess.

It is worth looking at 'mean global age'. In 2050, it is estimated to be 38 years. Curiously, in 2010 it was 28.4 years. What could this mean?

May I put forth this website as a place to "denk daran": http://www.pop.org/projects/debunk-overpopulation-myth

"how many are going to care about which word is really Saxon or not?" Good thing FOOD, HUNGRY, THIRSTY, NEED, HELP, THANK YOU, and GOD are ALL worthy Anglo-Saxon words!

My 2 Marks. Now back to Ænglisc.

Ængelfolc May-07-2011

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There are many, many Germanic borrowings in the tongues East of Germany...take a look at Polish and Czech. Spelling is a slightly off, but the word and meaning are still the same.

Ængelfolc May-07-2011

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Not quite yet, Shall we make it 2.5 billion at birth? Must use my glasses more....

jayles May-07-2011

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That would put you in the 61-65 range. World pop in 1950 was 2,521,000,000. ;-)

Ængelfolc May-07-2011

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Yes the question remains however will the number of native english speakers rise or fall in the next few decades, and how many will be motivated to clean up English? Or how would one motivate them?

jayles May-07-2011

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Incidentally where I live sheep used to outnumber humans by 25:1. but it's less so now.

jayles May-07-2011

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"Or how would one motivate them?"

How were they "motivated" to dirty it up?

Ængelfolc May-07-2011

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Ængelfolc: "most women in European countries are NOT helping those countries ....... maintain the population" I believer you have the wherewithal to correct this situation... go forth and spread yourself as wildly as possible in the name of Anglish!

jayles May-07-2011

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Attacking the church and academia will indeed bring peril to your soul

jayles May-07-2011

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It is quite true that as children native speakers learn phrasal verbs and mostly saxonesque wordstock first, and only come to the more academic and latinate words as a result of compulsory education.

jayles May-07-2011

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Academia is a tough target; it would be easier to target business via plain-speaking; this would then provide a platform to influence academics

jayles May-07-2011

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@jayles:

Yes, I'll breed true English speakers!! LOL! Funny enough, I read a letter from our parish priest, and reckoned the percent of Germanic and Latinate words. What did I find? Astonishingly, it turned out to be roughly 80% English, 20% Latin. There is hope!

Ængelfolc May-08-2011

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@jayles:

Yes, I think you have something there...going after businesses would be better. I am a businessman, and was curiously looking over a letter from an engineer to see how much of the words were actually Latin (like I did with the church letter). Again, I was shocked! About 75% of the words in the letter were Germanic. It seems that it is only in academic circles where we see a lot of Latin and Greek.

Ængelfolc May-08-2011

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@jayles: "Attacking the church and academia will indeed bring peril to your soul"

LOL! I think not...peril to a mainstream academic career maybe! I don't mind that. Who said anything about attacking the church? I can more easily accept their input into English, than that of wanton academic borrowing.

Ængelfolc May-08-2011

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Folks wanting to find out how to make headway in cleaning English of most of the foreign words should read about Philipp von Zesen and Joachim Heinrich Campe. Their work in part was making German words to put in stead of foreign ones, and then popularizing them. All I can say is, it worked rather well.

Also, it is likely that not many Englishmen are aware of William Barnes and his book, "Elements of English Grammar " (London, 1842). His goal, which he took very earnestly, was to "keep up the purity of the Saxon English language". He also wrote "Outline of English speech-craft" (1878).

Ængelfolc May-08-2011

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"England is Gothic by birth, Roman by adoption." -George Perkins Marsh, pg.18, "The Goths in New England" (1843)

Thoughtfully well said!

Ængelfolc May-08-2011

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"'kill tug' i.e 'killing machine' (?) etymology of name 'kellogg' rather than 'kill hog' (?)"

KELLOGG, Kellock (ME kellen (also killen, cullen) + hogg) means "one who kills hogs", a butcher. The name is first found in Essex court rolls as Kyllehog from 1277 AD. The name is often confused with the Hiberno-Norse name Kjallák(r) (from Irish Ceallach

Ængelfolc May-08-2011

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Ængelfolc: a) I introduced the topic of overpopulation to highlight the relative importance of Anglish; there are I believe more pressing issues. As I understand it wheat for Rome was mainly grown around Carthage and over the centuries this led to the deforestation and desertification of what is now Tunisia. So all I am suggesting is that it might be more important to focus our attention on, say, colony collapse disorder of honeybees, than worrying too much about latinate words in English.
b) I do understand your interest in etymology and in a way it is a shame that you are not already working in some academic situation where you could undermine the enemy from within. People might even read your books if your standing were better.
However for all I know your business may be vital to the economy (but hopefully not weapons dealing)

jayles May-10-2011

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Ængelfolc: "All one needs is a thesaurus and an English etymological dictionary."
I would be much easier if there was a nice program on the web that simply highlighted the latinate words in your document and suggested non-latinate ones instead. Thesaurus is nice but often just suggests even more latinate words and perhaps a saxon one and presumes you know which are which - esp which really came from frankish. Now there's a nice project!

jayles May-10-2011

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Like the sound of that jayles, though it's beyond words why the world's foremost tongue lacks some kind of etymological rootfinder program giving the stock of highlighted words. Would be also a good little sideworking (feature) of kindles both digitally and whilst skimming books. That it has not been done by now, shows how tinpot the ruling Academicia and the likes OED, Websters, etc are. Maybe a sideworking like this somehow rocks the boat for them (?)

Stanmund May-11-2011

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How dose 'sideworking' 'cut it for: 'feature'

/the new 700ZX contains a number of sideworkings/

How about 'againafter' for: 'deja vu'

/it felt like a bit of againafter going on/

Anyone?

Stanmund May-11-2011

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@Stanmund: Fr. deja vu means "already seen". Both words, 'already and seen', are Germanic English. There is no need to 'reinvent the wheel'.

I am not sure I see how "side working" would mean "distinctive part". That is how you used the word in your sentence. The English word "hallmark" could be used, and is used in the mainstream today.

Ængelfolc May-12-2011

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@jayles:

a) You are right, there are 'bigger fish to fry', but for this blog, Anglish is what is highlighted and foremost here. There is room for the bigger woes outside of this blog. I myself do worry about and take on these things in my daily life. I hope others do the same.

b) One of the best ways to understand a people (culture and history) is through their language. Yes, from within is the best way to make change in academia. If I got into the club, maybe that would give me a higher standing, and people would care to read my book(s). Although, maybe they will want to read them regardless of the academic critics. J.K. Rowling ring a bell? J.R.R. Tolkien? It took some doing, but they made it beyond the academic wall.

No, I am not a weapons dealer!! My business does fill a great need (legal, moral, and ethical) in the economy.

Ængelfolc May-12-2011

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Ængelfolc: "No, I am not a weapons dealer!! " Of course not, I believe you! No, really, I do.
Rowling? Tolkien? I confess I have read neither. You may shrive me. But successful books today are written alost like plays, eg the da Vinci code, with scenes and dialogs ready for filming. You could write "Earl of the Wings", but "Parry Hotter" is too obvious.

jayles May-15-2011

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The pitfalls of etymology:
a) session: sitting as in "afternoon session" at the cinema. Oh yes. from sedere to sit (L)
but what about "football practice session" .... they don't sit...

b) introduce: -> "lead-in" . Fine. But introduce is most often a verb "make known"
"May I lead-in my boss Mr Obama?"
"May I make known my boss, Mr Obama?"
It's the formality which is elusive.
c) reduce, deduce, produce, adduce, seduce, (extrajuice please?)
why suddenly "conduct" not conduce, why educate, not educe????
The really interesting thing is how impossible it would be to guess the meanings even if one knew the etymology of the prefix and main verb. Anglish may even suffer the same fate.

jayles May-15-2011

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@jayles:

a) "football practice session": the meaning of session here (a meeting to perform some deed) is from the legal definition meaning "a continuous series of sittings or meetings of a court, legislature, or the like". It has also been put forward that the thought may have come from "Courts of Quarter Sessions". They were local courts traditionally held at four set times each year throughout the former British Empire.

b) Latin intrōdūcere literally means "to lead/bring inside". Introduce seems to be a more common term when equals are acquainted. PRESENT is taken as the more formal, or so I believe.

c) L. conductus (conduct) is the past participle of L. conducere (conduce). The past part came to mean "to guide, escort; behavior". The L. educate is from L. educatus (pp. of L. educare "bring up, rear". ē- (outside, away) + -duc- "lead" + -ātus - "suffix indicates a borrowing from Latin, but also indicates a process of some kind"). So, "educate" literally means "the process of leading away or to the outside

Ængelfolc May-15-2011

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"I'd like you to meet..." is a nice anglish way of introducing people.
"May I present..." ("Darf ich vorstellen..") is fine in German but too demeaning or snooty for normal business or social life in English. Dangerous to translate verbatim (or word-for-word).
Some words are relatively easy to substitute eg reduce -> cut back (on) (noun cutback)
Others such as education much more difficult eg "learning" 'schooling" "training" all change the underlying concept. "development" would be closer but I guess is french.
Earlier "hallmark" was put forward for "feature" but really a hallmark identifies something, whereas features are the salient points.
Rather than attempting open slather on all alien words I think we need to begin by setting a target of an acceptable level of latinate words in normal "business" or social writing. Every language has borrowings, old and new, the question is how much is okay? and why? what is the criterion? the thing-by-which-we-judge (from the Gk kpnvw to judge)

jayles May-16-2011

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HALLMARK = feature

"One hallmark of his personality is his drive."

"Honor and integrity will be a hallmark of this administration"

"Restricting abortion has been a hallmark of his career."

It seems to work to mark a 'feature' just fine.

About DEVELOPMENT (develop + ment): Origins have been somewhat cloudy, but new info reveals the following:

develop >> from OFr. desveloper "to unfold, unfurl, unwrap" >> L.des- (dis-) "asunder, undo". veloper "wrap up" >> from V.L. *vlopp-, wlopp- >> PGmc. *wrappan-, *wlappan- (“to wrap, roll up, turn, wind”). Same etymology for 'envelope'; also related to 'warp' and 'wrap'. Cf. Mid. Eng. & O.E. wlappen,

-ment >> Latin suffix used to make nouns, and to mark a result/ effect of an action.

The word 'development' is a Latin-Germanic compound that English got later from French...around the 17th century. So, it might be ok to keep it in the English wordstock.

Ængelfolc May-16-2011

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Ængelfolc: Situation normal; alternative words work for some of the meanings and usages but not all. eg a) This year's models include several new safety features
b) Her eyes are her best feature
I don't think hallmark would work well here. To me "hallmark" will always suggest the little markings on silverware which tell you when it was made and where. Dictionaries give about seven usages of feature, so it would be hard to cover with just one substitute.
"Suspend" as in "Japan will suspend production at three nuclear power plants"
Japan will put production on hold at ....
However one can also suspend an employee, etc
Once again we would need multiple substitutes to cover the various usages.
In the end, when we get to technospeak it may be better to stick with the latinate words just so everyone is clear what is meant. I think some of them are there and used because there is no obvious "anglish" alternative. (otherchoice)
Yet again in the same news article I found "painstaking", "stricken" "vow" and other good english words. Journalists and newswriters are usually very good at using "anglish" expressions wherever possible. After all writing is their craft.

jayles May-16-2011

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Recent studies of Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA haplotypes have shown that most of the genetic heritage of the British Isles is from an ancestral Atlantic Coast population group that includes the ancient Iberians, the Basques and the Atlantic-coast French. Anybody who wants to restore the Germanicness (or Theodishness) of English for racist or xenophobic reasons is actually fighting for a seriously ill-conceived cause. In any event, the Anglish movement is not in any danger of taking the Anglosphere by storm. All in all it seems to be harmless and somewhat interesting, if a little eccentric and esoteric.

JeffinNYC May-18-2011

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I was wondering when someone was going to bring up the DNA/Xenophobia argument. It's just plain wrong to put forth such conclusions, as written above, as true, immutable, irrefutable, unchangeable facts. At least, at this point in time. The DNA science, and by extension the arguments, are in their infancy and are going through huge growing pains all the time.

For every study or set of results that show "most of the genetic heritage of the British Isles is from an ancestral Atlantic Coast population group that includes the ancient Iberians, the Basques and the Atlantic-coast French", I can show the exact opposite results "proving" the "Germanicness" of the British Isles. It is inappropriate to argue using genetics because of the ever shifting outcomes. No definitive conclusions have yet been borne out, only opinions and guesses have been given. There are still many assumptions being made across the board, even, and especially, by the Hiberno-Basque-Celtic champions Oppenheimer and Sykes. The truth about British genetics is very likely somewhere betwixt the Anglo-Saxon and Hiberno-Celtic-Basque opinions.

Arguments about race, DNA, xenophobia, asf have no place here, as those involved in this blog are talking about the English language and, to a lesser extent, culture, not race, ethnicity, and certainly not, genes. Language and culture have little to do with DNA, otherwise Normans and Russians would be speaking a form of Old Norse, not Celtic/Gaulish-Roman and Slavic languages.

Ængelfolc May-18-2011

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@jayles: "Once again we would need multiple substitutes to cover the various usages."

Yes! I am with you! I think you are right here, and likely about the "techno" wordstock, too. What else would one call a CD (compact disc)? It goes back to what I said about names of things and thoughts that came to English, like 'potato', 'cross/crucifix', and 'socks'. Although, I see no reason why English-speaking techies couldn't find English names for their future findings.

Ængelfolc May-18-2011

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"Language and culture have little to do with DNA," But what exactly is wrong with beautiful Norman/anglo-french words like "sheriff"; or celtic words like "carry" why would you deny us our heritage? What is the basis for IMPOSING your ideas about what is acceptable English and what is not? or for IMPOSING your Germanic words upon us? Why should we accept it? Why is Germanic better than celtic, better than anything else?
Frankly in Londinium today I hear more Urdu, Gujurati, Arabic, Tamil, Polish, and the rest than English (outside business circles of course). Must all these people too succumb to the Germanic tongue? If not why not?
Now that should stir things up a bit!!! ;=))

jayles May-18-2011

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@jayles:

1. "sheriff" (O.E. scīrgerefa) is not Norman, French, Celtic, or Latin at all. It is a Germanic English compound word: shire (O.E. scīr) + reeve (O.E. gerefa, O.E. gerēva), meaning "steward of an administrative district." So, there is nothing wrong with this word staying in the English wordstock! You likely meant "bailiff", right?

2. "What is the basis for IMPOSING your ideas about what is acceptable English and what is not? or for IMPOSING your Germanic words upon us?" This is a loaded question! It hangs upon what one means by "English". Truly, English is the brainchild of Germanic folks. It is, in a broad way, the blending of many North and West Germanic tongues (sprinkled with a little Latin from early Roman contact). It is most appropriate to "impose" Germanic words on the tongue itself, indeed when one wants to keep the true English alive. Now, if you mean the globally influenced mongrel tongue that the world claims to speak as English, well then this argument falls upon deaf, culturally relative, ears.

3. "Why is Germanic better than celtic, better than anything else?" Well, Celtic words are of little regards in English. There are hardly any Celticisms in English at all. The verb "carry" has never been in question. Someone already argued thusly: "Carry is fully anglicized ie it operates as a phrasal verb and in compounds using English prefixes." Moving on, no one ever said that Germanic was better than Celtic or whatever. The same could be asked about the late rebirth of Cymraeg. On 9 Feb 2011, the Welsh Language Measure received Royal Assent, assuring its "official status". Minister for Heritage, Alun Ffred Jones, said, “The Welsh language is a source of great pride for the people of Wales..." Mr. Ffred's words wreak of a Pan-Celtic, ethno-nationalistic, highly ethnocentric hate-speech, right? Pride for the Welsh? What about the other 95% of Great Britain who are non-Welsh? Have they no right to be proud? Next, they should stop calling themselves WELSH, don't you think?

4. "Frankly in Londinium today I hear more Urdu, Gujurati, Arabic, Tamil, Polish, and the rest than English (outside business circles of course). Must all these people too succumb to the Germanic tongue?" YES!! You only hear all of those tongues because of the recent settling of great hordes of immigrants. It is like that in most major world cities (i.e. Berlin, New York, München, asf). Outside of the big cities, it is probably a lot less like what you have described.

Ængelfolc May-18-2011

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@jayles: "But what exactly is wrong with beautiful Norman/anglo-french words like "sheriff"; or celtic words like "carry" why would you deny us our heritage?"

Nothing is wrong with non-Germanic words in their own tongues. And, no one is denying anyone interest in, or pursuit of their own heritage (unless, it seems, it is the pursuit of the rebirth of Germanic Ænglisc).

If one wants to speak mainly French and Latin words, speak French, Spanish, or Italian. If one wants to speak mainly Celtic words, speak a living Celtic tongue like Cymraeg, Brezhoneg, Gaeilge, or Gàidhlig. It is wrong and brazen to over burden English with borrowings from other tongues. Some borrowing is understood. Wanton borrowing, however, that seeks, willfully or otherwise, to crowd out native English words must be boldly dealt with head-on and halted right away...lest English suffer the same wyrd (fate) as Gothic, Vandalic, Greenlandic Norse, Norm, asf.

To start Pan-Celticism in earnest maybe someone could revive Kernewek (3000 speakers)or Gaelg (1700 speakers).

If one speaks English, one should speak English words.

Ængelfolc May-18-2011

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@jayles: "Every language has borrowings, old and new, the question is how much is okay? and why?"

I think there are many "right" answers to this question. Germanic and Roman folks had been in contact prior to the landing of the brothers Hengest and Horsa in 449 AD. It has been said that many millions of Germanic folks were living within the borders of the Roman Empire in the 4th century. What's more, Teutonic traders were doing business with the Romans in Gaulish towns bordering Germania in the 3rd and 4th centuries. Also, lest we forget, Ænglisc was open to Latin through the few Celtic borrowings.

Indeed, it was the Romans war dealings with Germanic folks that brought the most Latin to Ænglisc. There are five areas where Latin borrowing has been plentiful: commercial (trading/agriculture), military, law/government, religion, and intellectual. And, there are five Latin loan time frames that would need to be looked at: Continental Borrowings (before 449 AD), Latin through Celtic (mainly place names, 449 AD-597 AD), Latin through Christianity (about 450 Latin words through Frankish, 597 AD- 1066 AD), the Normans (about 5-10,000 words , 1066 AD-1260 AD), and the Renaissance/Scientific Discover/ Printing Press Era (1500 AD-1800 AD, about 10,000 Latin and Greek words).

I would take out most of the Latin/French/Greek words from 1066 AD onward and put English words in their stead. Often, one finds that two borrowed words can be traced back to the same Latin root! The reason modern English has about 25% borrowed wordstock from Latin and French is mainly due to these last two time-frames.

"Scholars", writers, translators, asf, wanted to replace much of the Norman-French words borrowed earlier, and thought (wrongly) that English (at that time) was not able to create works like could be done in Latin, Greek, or even Italian. They had an intellectual/linguistic inferiority complex likely brought on by the Norman invasion.

These "academics" wantonly translated lots of words directly from the Latin and Greek in the vain, misguided hope that the tongue could be intellectually lifted--or as "W" would say, English needed to be "smartified". ;-p-- and de-Frenchified. These translations were so ridiculous and numerous that the term "inkhorn terms" was used to described the harebrained practice.

We would likely get rid of 15% of the borrowings and doublets by gutting the borrowings from 1066 AD onward. As for a standard, we should average the borrowing rates of all of the other Germanic tongues, and use that average to guide our borrowing rate. This number would also help to reckon, more or less, how much needless, crazy over-borrowing there was from 1066 AD- 1800 AD. The thought with this whole thing (for me) is getting words through Latin/French wanton over-borrowing instead of using the English words already in English. Also,we have to think about words that have been rightly Anglified. Like when a borrowed Latin noun becomes a verb through the addition of a Germanic suffix.

Again, academia and the church are at the forefront! My 2 Marks...

Ængelfolc May-20-2011

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"The thought with this whole thing (for me) is getting words through Latin/French wanton over-borrowing instead of using the English words already in English."

That sentence did NOT turn out right! LOL....do over....

For me, this whole thing is about to showing that most of the Latin words in English were a result of misguided, wanton over-borrowing, and were/are not needed. Also, I would like to highlight the fact that they (academics) turned to Latin (and to a lesser extent, Greek), instead of thoughtfully using and being proud of the rich English word-stock that was already at hand to mark new thoughts and things.

Bottom line: Upholding language, is to uphold a culture.

Ængelfolc May-20-2011

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"...to showing..." = the showing

;-o

Ængelfolc May-20-2011

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Translate this to Anglish, please...

The Modern Whig philosophy and principles and the solutions to those principles are all about effectiveness. Whigsapproach each issue on its own and using our Whig philosophy we can approach each issue in a pragmatic way.

Our focus is not on ideology, its on what is most effective. We have our principles which we hold firm to. Where we are pragmatic is in the solutions to those principles. We focus on on what we like, or what you like but what works best and the most effective solutions. Whigs believe that this is what public service is all about.

Pragmatic, balanced and non-ideological approach to public policy puts the American people first.

Solutions-oriented, methodological yet flexible in approach towards ‘centrist’ policy proposals.

Greater citizen participation in the formation of public policy. Highly informed citizens is the new normal.

Focus on core issues that affect all Americans as a whole, not just one group or a few special interest issues.

Freedom of political thought and action, not stuck on ideology.

Historical political truths are replaced by new truths and realities as citizens participate without prior bias using only modern Whig and basic Constitutional guidelines.

Therefore the Whigs are not a traditional political party, nor do we have a traditional party platform. We believe that traditional solutions will remain ineffective.

Whigs practice independent thought, stress citizen participation, want the curtailment of lobby interests, a review of electoral methods, all to ensure a healthy Republic .

The Whig philosophy is a philosophy that stresses method, and seeks to refine or rebuild the methodologies of our representation.

Please explore the following sections to find out more about the Whig Philosophy and Whig Principles.

Adam2 May-20-2011

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@addyatg: maybe I will make a go of it....looking it over....it is already made up of about 60-65% true English (Germanic). Let's see who comes up with what.

Ængelfolc May-20-2011

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I think this info fitting to our banter on what is English and what is not. Worth thinking about anyway:

"The Dansk Sprognævn (Danish Language Council) collects and registers all new Danish words. As with all languages, modern Danish is influenced and enriched by foreign words. One of the Council's tasks is to decide which words are considered Danish, and which are loan words. 'Bar', 'bus', 'film' and 'slum' all fit Danish rules of spelling and pronunciation, and so are now considered Danish words, but 'freelance' and 'playboy' are used, but considered mere loan words."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/languages/european_languages/languages/danish.shtml

Ængelfolc May-22-2011

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From the same BBC website, on German:

"Home speakers can be found in France, The Netherlands, Denmark, Italy, Hungary, Romania, Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Kazakhstan and other republics of former USSR."

I want to highlight the use of "Home speakers" here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/languages/european_languages/languages/german.shtml

Ængelfolc May-22-2011

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"Outside of the big cities, it is probably a lot less like what you have described."
Well maybe up till now You could make a last stand for Anglish in some remote valley in Northumbria, in the hills north of Jedburgh......fending off the incoming hordes.....rather like Arthur did to the Saxons in the first place.

jayles May-23-2011

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