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Proofreading Service - Pain in the English
Proofreading Service - Pain in the English

Your Pain Is Our Pleasure

24-Hour Proofreading Service—We proofread your Google Docs or Microsoft Word files. We hate grammatical errors with passion. Learn More

“Anglish”

Has anyone come across “Anglish”? Anglish or Saxon is described as “...a form of English linguistic purism, which favours words of native (Germanic) origin over those of foreign (mainly Romance and Greek) origin.”

Does anybody have an opinion or thoughts on “Anglish”...

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Comments

This looks very much like Cowley's work who wrote 'How we'd talk if the English won in 1066' . I think he's an excellent linguist with cutting edge ideas on the make and mode of English as it stands and would have been. I do, however, believe that 'ednew' became the modern 'anew' thus, it should be Anew/ Anewed English.

Gallitrot Dec-03-2017

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Hello,

Does anyone know anything about this site:

http://ednewenglish.tripod.com/index.htm

The first sentence describing it says:

"Ednew English is dedicated to an awareness and restoration primarly of native English words."

There are lists of prefixes, suffixes, verbs, and so on; but there is no information about who the author is.

There are lots of interesting words there, but I wonder if they are actually words. For example, is "Ednew" actually a word?

Thanks,

Ceolfrid Dec-02-2017

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The comment begins with the urge to “fuck French, fuck Latin, fuck Greek”. I thought this was an academic debate about whether or not to reduce the amount of foreign words in the English language, not an opportunity to insult other people and their languages. If this particular commentator feels like “fucking” a language, he can always “fuck” his own.

Ariadne Aug-15-2017

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There is something to be said for using, or reviving, the native English word, as over against the loan word, in current speech; because the native word is often, I think, clearer. Of course one can take it too far and end up speaking a badly crafted form of 'Old English' which would sound rather ridiculous. Better to learn Old English and speak it properly.

Rev Robert West Jul-31-2017

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I just came across Anglish this early this morning. It's intriguing to say the least. However, it does seem to be clunky and awkward. Languages always was a bit of a hobby to me. But if you really want to get a good go at it, start with the kids, and tell them to start speaking Anglish to annoy their parents. :-)

john2 Jun-01-2017

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MIGHTEN!!??

user106928 Jan-26-2017

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Is this sentence right? It might snow; mighten it? Mighten means- it might will snow. It's like making a statement and asking a question at the same time but the question is directed at another person as in asking the other person's opinion.

Juanita Caldwell Jan-25-2017

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I've been writing about Anglish for years. My latest website is pureenglish.org. All comments are welcome. By the way, I set the Anglish Moot up with a likemind, but we've both forsaken it as we do not agree with the direction of most users there.

BryanAJParry Jul-27-2016

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Let's go back to the beginning, shall we?

The first words about Anglish can be rewritten thus:

Anglish is a tongue made from today's English by drawing together words of Saxon stock and leaving out those which are outlandish.

Writing all in Saxon and Norse-root words isn't such a hardship, but...

I am reading two kinds of mistake about Anglish among the people posting. The first kind stems from laziness in thinking about meaningful speech: "all you blowhards should rather leave English alone," as though by speaking it we don't all have a hand in crafting it.

The second kind stems from laziness in rewriting English by using Saxon sounds without care for meaning. "Uncleftish springballs" is dumb and bewildering. "Great fireballs" when speaking of World War II would do much better: it is Saxon, straightforward, and strong.

Moreover, this bewilderingly dumb problem is heard again and again in the high-speech, low-speech nonsense in shows like those made by that "History" network. Some of the story is told in outlandish speech, and then the same thought is straight away retold in "low" English. This is meant to stand in for giving true insight.

However, for some really good Anglish, one needs look no further than Tolkien. Taut, thriving speech is best won by wielding the mightiest words ready to hand, and Tolkien was the wizard of all writers when it came to roots English.

As his amazing work tells, Anglish doesn't have to be boring, nor does English. Nor does English hurt much from leaving out outlandish speech. I love Latin and Greek, but today they are often used to hide rather than show true meaning. Writing in an Anglish way makes thoughts sharper and writing more trustworthy.

Zachary J Gray Aug-08-2015

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"Because back in the 1840s, around 80 percent of people living in Wales were Welsh speakers, many of them spoke no English at all. Fast forward to the recent 2011 census and that number has dropped to below 20 percent."
as stated in :
http://sabotagetimes.com/life/mind-your-language/

Not sure whether this is well-founded or not, but if so could account for the late rise in continuous forms

jayles the unwoven Dec-17-2014

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http://homes.chass.utoronto.ca/~cpercy/courses/6362-lamont.htm

My next question would be: how much did the post-1847 drive to teach English to Welsh children in schools contribute to the much-more-widespread use of continuous/progressive forms?
Did these forms become more common in 1800's because of grammarians' influences, the crossover from Welsh or upper-class affectation with over-politeness?

Either way it seems that the true Englishness of today's widespread use of continuous forms is questionable

jayles the unwoven Dec-17-2014

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One of the odd grammatical things about modern English is the way we use : want.
Eg: I want her to come

Oddly, if one puts this phrase into Ngrams it does not show up before 1804

http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=I+want+her+to+come&case_insensitive=on&year_start=1500&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CI%20want%20her%20to%20come%3B%2Cc0

I had hitherto assumed that this usage started in the Middle Ages, but perhaps it was much later

This structure differs from both French and German (Je veux qu'elle aille: Ich will dass sie komme): the French phrase comes up on Google, but not the German one

So the questions are:
When did this structure with "want" come into use?
What did people say instead of it before then ?

Is the real Germanic way : She should/must/has to come ??

jayles the unwoven Dec-03-2014

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No need to cloud the meaning with "pedophile" when foot-lover would do instead.

jayles the unwoven Dec-02-2014

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@Hairyscot:

Ignoring all the reasons for unneeded doublets and triplets, and even quadruplets and quintuplets in English speech is what allows 'inkhorn' terms to be used by those shrewdly sly types, so as to make bureaucratic minced meat out of ordinary folk whenever their lives are touched by politics, law, medicine, etc... and most inkhorn terms are Latin or Old French. The terms may have been in our language for decades even centuries, but many are still impenetrable for the majority of native speakers.

Over the last 1000 yrs English speakers who have spoken a more Germanic form of English have often been treated as somehow 'base' or ' coarse ' for hundreds of years. Why? For no other reason than their forefathers were overcome by a small invasion force of French-ish speaking Vikings, and that they didn't have a natural Romance vocabulary of their overlords.

No matter what our stand-point now, lots of harm was done, plenty of people have been and are still being exploited due to jargon words and 'sesquipedalianism' , dare I say, freely allowed to enter be drawn-up in contracts and documents.

My question in return would be: Is it problematic if we started to shift our speech towards a more Tokienish style, as long as that speech brought more clearness, see-throughness and understandableness to the majority of native speakers, and even none-native speakers?

Gallitrot Dec-02-2014

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@HS Given our diverse genetic genes, and the otherness of our upbringing and sundry experiences, and the on-flow on our mindset and thinking, it is hardly likely we shall see eye to eye on this. To look upon this thread as the upshot of a harmless (or perhaps mindless) eccentricity might be your best bet to restore your mind-frith.

Whether or nay it be pointless, is of course a matter of standpoint.

So you did not get the beckon to become an extra for Lord of the Rings? No wish to act the Orc or Gandalf?

jayles the unwoven Nov-25-2014

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@jayles the unwoven

Not sure how all that fits in to "grey areas of the English language".

Eschewing words derived from Latin and the romance languages seem to me to be a rather pointless exercise.
Do we really want to go around sounding like extras from Lord of the Rings?

user106928 Nov-24-2014

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oops 'vendor' instead of 'seller'

jayles the unwoven Nov-24-2014

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@HS Why is this thread here?
Well it has lead me to consider the roots of modern English; to become much more aware of the influences on modern English lexis; the 'snob' value of using 'rapidly' instead of 'fast', 'quick', 'speedy', to be more aware of those older-rooted words that still exist in dialects and in the dictionary.

If one wades through all the guff, it is a treatise about lexis and style and what is the effect on "register" in modern English, and how acceptable some of the older, less common words are in modern English. Curiously, in the IELTS (International English Testing System), one gets extra marks for using "less common" lexis correctly and in context; however I doubt they mean archaic words, but rather more academic and latin-rooted words.

Sometimes one comes across new coinages like "go-forward" as a noun instead of "progress"; abd perhaps this mirrors the demise of Latin-learning at school, and a step in some areas toward a more straightforward forthright English style.

At any rate, in my view it is a wonderful exercise to try writing English which avoids latin-rooted words wherever it can be done/ wherever it is feasible/wherever it is viable. Equally using Norman-French-rooted words like 'feasible' wherever do-able makes one more aware of the everyday business register in modern English. If one cannot do this one might be unaware of the on-flow from word-choice in terms of informal/business/academic register. Knowing when to use 'invoice' instead of 'bill', 'purchase' instead of 'buy', 'vendor' instead of 'buyer' is very much a deal of modern English and in reading this thread one cannot sidestep the moot point.

That said, many Latin-rooted words cannot be easily sidestepped in today's English, and that is the end-point of this thread. Stick to words in the dictionary if you wish to be understood. Be wary of out-of-date words unless you are writing a historical novel or something.

But don't mark "hearty greetings" wrong at the end of a letter or email, mark it as "seldom used today" as it was quite okay four hundred years ago. It is no more wrong than Chaucer was in his day. Cherchez le mot just!

jayles the unwoven Nov-24-2014

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Why is this thread here?

There is a whole forum devoted to Anglish.

user106928 Nov-23-2014

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Hullo!

Good to see you fair chaps still wrangling and tussling the groundstones of our motherly speak.

h.b.t (harking back to) Anwulf's list:


preferable - rathered/ lief

Gallitrot Nov-21-2014

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Pith is from OE piþa (þ=th). As for the shape pithy (pith+y), it shows up in ME as pithi (pithier, pithiest) often in the meaning of strong ... and the adv pithili (often in the meaning of thoroly).

a1400 (a1325) Cursor (Vsp A.3) 9384: And al-king thing was þan to trow Wel pithier [Göt: mihtier] þan þai ar now.

Siker ... from OE sicor, from Lat. securus (same as Ger. sicher) ... was both an adj and adv in ME. It was respelt 'secure' in the "back to Latin root spelling" moovment of the 16th yearhund (century). From 'secure (ly)' one can eathly note as 'certain(ly)' and it often was.

AnWulf Sep-23-2014

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@AnWulf Thank you for this: it is refreshing to climb out of the latinate ruts of today's English.
That said, my understanding is that "pithy" stems from c 1520 not earlier?
And I seem to recall either Chaucer or Shakespeare using "siker" where we might use "certainly" today?

jayles the unwoven Sep-12-2014

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I saw this in a sci-fi book over the weekend:

"English was the common tongue of the Imperium and seemed likely to remain so. Its flexibility, concision, and adaptability were certainly vastly preferable to Universal.

Throwing out the articles, to, and 'and', there 18 words. Of those, eight (8) or 44%, ar Anglo rooted … English, was, tongue, seemed, likely, so, its, were. The lave … common, imperium, remain, flexibility, concision (yuck … conciseness would hav been a tad better), adaptability, certainly, vastly, preferable, universal are Latinates.

Thankfully he wrote 'tongue' (French rooted spelling), 'seemed' and 'likely' rather than 'language', 'appeared', and 'probably'.

However, we can do better even tho a few of these are tuff words to swap out:

common - widespred, mainstream, main, overall
Imperium - Rike
remain - stay (Skeat has it of Teut. root), blive
flexibility - freedom, bendsumness, bendiness, stretchiness, litheness
concision - shortness, pithiness
adaptability - blendness, fitness, fittingness
certainly - wisly, gewiss, without nay, huru
vastly - greatly
preferable - better lik't
universal - all, overall, broad, everyday mainstream, one-tung … broad-tung

"English was the main tung of the Rike and seem'd likely to blive so. Its litheness, pithiness, and fittingness were without nay the better choosing than Broad-tung."

AnWulf Sep-10-2014

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"[English] gets you ahead."
should perhaps be
"[English] gets you head."

user106928 Jun-12-2014

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If there is any nay that English has become the "lingua franca" of the world:

So what are Brazil's sex workers doing to prepare for increased traffic during the World Cup? At the top of the list: learning English. ... and according to Laura Mario Do Espirito Santo — a founding member of Aprosmig, a union for prostitutes within the state of Minas Gerais — "[English] gets you ahead."


http://www.yourtango.com/2014217977/sex-how-brazils-prostitutes-are-preparing-world-cup

AnWulf Jun-09-2014

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@jayles ... frame is a noteful word.

The drawsbacks outweigh the good ... the boon ... the worth ... the rewards (ward is Teut.) ... the gain ...

AnWulf Apr-04-2014

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@AnWulf Yes, freme. Seems to come up as frame with slight meaning change too :

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/frame

I just balked at putting "behoof" as a tellable word as in :
"the drawbacks outweigh the behoofs" (or behooves, clip, clop!)

jayles Apr-03-2014

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@jayles ... Did you mean "freme"? The word fremful means beneficial, useful, effectiv.

Most of the words that meant "benefit, advantage, profit" in OE didn't make it. The word "good" can often be put in or "behoof" for the noun.

AnWulf Apr-03-2014

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@AnWulf Thanks. All I could find was "frame" but that seems well and truly dead in the meaning of benefit.

jayles Mar-25-2014

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@Jayles, benefit in ME was ... benefit ... also benefet. As for behoove (v)/behoof (n)... that's a long tale about how it was noted. But to answer your frain, yes, in ME it was noted in the first person: If thou gif me mete..as I behoued [rime: foode] ... Here it means "need, require".

But think about it, we don't often note 'benefit' aside from third person ... it would benefit/behoove you to learn this. It is of benefit/behoof to us all.

Or as in the past tense (as in the ME byspel above): I benefited/behoovd. ... Or ... It was a benefit/behoof to me.

AnWulf Mar-24-2014

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Benefit: what was the middle English word for this?
In wills and conveyancing the phrase " to the use and behoof of someone" was standard usage until 20th century; but nowadays using "behoof" outside the word-string "for his/her/their own behoof" sounds strange.

What is the link to behoove/behove and were these doing-words erstly used in 1st and 2nd person and not hedged-in to the impersonal word-string "it behoves us all"?

jayles Mar-18-2014

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Another reason that English got swampt by Latinates is that many thought that Latin was the mother tung!

There was a general idea among many that all English was derived from Latin, for no better reason than because this was true of many borrowed words; … Skeat, p57, Sci. of Etymo.

Of this I am certain, that the Celtic and Armoric, and even the Sanskrit identities, are very often nothing but Latin itself, pura puta Latina vox. Thus the Armoric Pirgrin and Relizhon must be corruptions of Peregrinus and Religionis, the Cornish Paun of Pavonis, and the German Ente of Anatis: … So the Northern Recht, Richt, Right, are from the Latin Rectus, … Valpy, pA3, "Virgilian Hours"

AnWulf Mar-07-2014

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Thanks Jasper but the 2nd 'cash' that is on the link is from Tamil thru Portuguese ... A coin of low value from China, southern India, or SE Asia. http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/cash#cash-2 ... It also came into English in the late 1500s. Now that you'v shown me that the 'cash' ... supposedly from the French ... came in the tung in 1596 ... Well, that's pretty late!

So now the frain is when did the 'cash' from Tamil ... meaning a coin ... make it's first showing?Well, we known that the Oxfd Dict Online (ODO) says "late 16th Century" ... Can't get much later than the 1596 of the supposed French/Italian upspring of 'cash'. My thoughts are that the Tamil 'cash' is the true root. The ODO says that the Tamil rooted 'cash' was swayd by the French rooted 'cash'. I was looking for any hard proof of that. It looks more like they had two choices and went with the French for the till as the root rather than the Tamil which truly meant money.

AnWulf Mar-06-2014

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@AnWulf,

On rereading your question, I seem to have misinterpreted it the first time. But to iterate what was said in the previous post, the Italian word "cassa" predates French "casse". Sorry about that.

Jasper Feb-20-2014

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Definition 1a of Substantive (noun): "A chest or box for money; a cash-box, till."
First appearance dated to 1598 and attributed to FLORIO and then in 1611 to COTGR. Googling Florio 1598 gives Giovanni Florio while searching for COTGR 1611 redirects to Cotgrave and gives the wikipedia page Randle Cotgrave. The selection of names is based off of the evidence found.

Adapted French [casse]: "a box, casse, chest, to carrie or keep wares in, also a Marchants cash or counter", Cotgrave.

Or its origin through Italian [cassa]:

"a chest,.. also, a merchants cashe or touner", Florio

Definition 1b: "A sum of money." Obs.

As for the second definition for the substantive with the first date of 1596:

"Money; in the form of a coin, ready money"
"a. Formerly in literary and general use; but now only commercial (see b), or consciously used as a sort of commercial slang"
"b. As a term of banking or commerce, used to signify, in its strictest sense, specie; also, less strictly, bank notes, which can at once be converted into specie, and are therefore taken as 'cash', in opposition to bills or other securities. Also in the phrases [these phrases are bold] hard cash, ready cash, cash in hand, cash on delivery: applied to the forwarding of goods to order, payment being made to the carrier or postman when the goods are delivered. Abbreviated C.O.D."

1596 Nashe Saffron Walden, 106[:] "He put his hand in his pocket but... not to pluck out anie cash." (Definition 2a.)

1599 Shaks. Hen. V, II. i. 120[:] "Nym. I shall haue my Noble? Pist. In cash, most iustly payd."

Although there is a discrepancy in Henry V, 120 is the stated line but when cross-referencing it with

http://www.opensourceshakespeare.org/views/plays/characters/charlines.php?CharID=nym&WorkID=henry5

Perhaps, this is because the paper was larger than the ones used now.

Definition 2c dated 1614: "Minted coin, current coin." Obs.

1614 T. Adams Devil's Bang. 205[:] "To buy leaden trash, with golden cash."

Definition 2d dated 1651: "It is also the regular term for 'money' in Book-keeping. See cash account in 3."

1651 in Index Royalists (Index Soc.) 18[:] "The said treasures or their clerk of the cash."

2e. "Phrases. out of cash, in cash."

1593 Peele Edw. I (1830) 57[:] "Now the Friar is out of cash five nobles, God knows how he shall come into cash again."

2f. "cash down (Down adv. 12): ready money." orig. U.S.

[1722 P. Lloyd Let. 28 Jul in Maryland Hist. Soc. Publication (1804) XXXIV. 31[:] "A reserve was made of Almost all the Lands upon the Western shore, for the Value of £120 p^d downe."]

2g. cash and carry, a system whereby the purchaser pays the cash for goods and takes them away himself. Usu. attrib. Also elliot., a shop or supermarket operating on this system. spec. used with reference to purchases of arms from the U.S. in the period immediately before 1941. Also, cash and carry away. orig. U.S.

1917 Ladies' Home Jrnl. July 27/3, "I would recommend to every women that you follow the 'cash and carry' plan of buying in preference to the 'credit and delivery' plan."

1937 Ann. Reg. 1936 204[:] "The President should be given some measure of discretion to permit, say, the victims of aggression to buy, pay for, and transport at their own risk such supplies, not actually munitions of war, which they might need. This policy was described by its proponents as the 'cash and carry' policy."

With that, I'll end and give you some time to digest the material.

Jasper Feb-18-2014

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@Jasper, here is word that falls into that dead space between ME and the 1800s ... cash. The Oxford Dict. Online has two roots (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/cash) ... both coming into English as the "late 16th century) ... I'd like to know if which shows up first in the OED ... that is, if one can tell clearly from the meanings. Thanks

AnWulf Feb-18-2014

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@AnWulf,

I will take you up that offer about providing quotations whenever possible. I checked Oxford's entry on peace, and the earliest date that I found was 1154. That fact about Oxford English Dictionaries disconcerts me because I was hoping that it would be very comprehensive, as it is Oxford. I am a little concerned that the dictionary lacks completeness and thoroughness because of some dearth of diligence on the lexicographers' part.

Jasper Jan-23-2014

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One more thing ... and it's been brought up before. The OED often stops ... by its only policy ... at Middle English starting in the year 1150. Thus is misses that "peace" first came into English in Late OE in 1135. The word still wasn't needed as the OE had both frith and grith ... but the OED puts the word as coming into English in ME and not LOE.

peace – pais – peace [from Old French pais, from Latin pax, pac- ‘peace’] LOE: Pais he makede men and dær. … AS Chronicles, 1135

AnWulf Jan-17-2014

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@Jasper, yes the full OED has lots of quotes which help with the witt (sense) of how the word was being noted. They keep that behind their subscription firewall. Thanks for the offer ... and feel free to chime in with quotes from it when a word comes up here.

The guy at Etymonline is friendly. If you can show him some kind of reference, he'll look it over. He's not into gessing ... He follows the path blaze'd by others. He has a reference for every word that he has done. But in the end, he ... like others ... has to make a choice and makes that choice rooted on the references. So if most of the references say that X has a Latin root, that is what he puts.

As always, the further back one goes, the murkier it gets. Then, as you said, there are cognates and sometimes the cognates are so near to one another that it truly can be a eenie-meenie-mighty-moe pick as to whether the root is Latin or Teut. ... like OHG trahton (not a Latinate ... Kluge) and Latin tractus ... so from whence OE traht? I think it's Teut. but others say it was borrow'd from Latin. Fall (OE fallan, feallan) and falter are Teut. ... fail, fault are Latin from fallere. Those are near to each other that one could beget the same words. ... Who knew that OE and ME elend, elend 'foreign' and English 'else' hav the same PIE root *el 'beyond, other' as Latin alien and alias, alius? That's why I'v started blogging some of these.

I do what I can with others like the MED (Middle Eng. Dict.) which is fully online and is free ... as is B-T Anglo-Saxon. Lots of byspels in those two. The gap comes after ME til about 1800 ... There are lots of old books (free) in Google Books ... some seekful ... some not. Gutenburg and Archive.org are great but you hav to know which book you're looking for ... you can't do a word seek on their database (kenbit-stow?) ... However, once you know which book you want to look in, you can do an online word-seek. There are other spots to look ... BYU has an amazing gathering of writings that is online but there are scannos so one still must be careful. Even with all those, it's still often hard to find a word that is found in old wordbooks (huru wordbooks of old words and provincial words) to see how it might hav been noted.


As for the French ... and the Spanish hav a like academy ... well, they're having about as much luck as the gainsayers did against the inkhorn words. For now, it's English's time in the sun and the world is sucking up English words all over. I spend a lot of time in S. America. Only yestern, I saw a gal with a t-shirt at the pizza shop with a shirt that read "on (heart) the flight" ... I wasn't truly gewiss as to what it meant. I think it meant something like "on the love boat" but I see that often here ... they make shirts with English on them ... and often bad English! Many goods and wares here are in English ... I saw in the pet shop yestern a bottle with something for cows to ward off bugs label'd as "pour-on".

Sorry for the long post ... I got a little carry'd away!

AnWulf Jan-17-2014

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@AnWulf,

First, on Etymonline's giving of different roots might be because of cognates, which I am sure you are aware.

Second, because I have the compact version of the 20 volume set of the Oxford English Dictionary. This includes, from what I remember, quotations from various authors and some etymology, if you would like, you may ask me to look something up for you.

From your perspective, the Académie Française's condemnation must seem rather ironic to you, with so many Romantic words having been imported and incorporated into English.

Jasper Jan-16-2014

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When about half of French is Anglo-Teutonish English, then they can whinge ... Look at the headline below ... It's mostly latinates.

Drop these ugly Anglicisms ASAP, urge French language police
Académie Française condemns use of abbreviation of as soon as possible, and adoption of score as a verb

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/08/anglicisms-asap-score-french-language-police

AnWulf Jan-16-2014

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@Gallitrot,

Etymonline takes a truly wary, chary way ... The writer isn't an etymologist himself, he only writes what can be found in other works. So, if you can find another upspring for a word ... then you can write him and send him the info. He often goes deeper than many and givs other tidbits that are often found. Even tho he is wary, and I may not hold with what he has, he has, nonetheless, done an amazing job.

But rather than whinge about other's works ... and there is lot to whinge about ... I'v started writing blogs call'd "Latin or Teutonish" where I lay what I know of a word and how etym of the word my go another way than most. Like Etymonline, I am not an etymologist. And I can only go by what I hav found free online (I don't hav a subscription to the OED) so there are gaps in what I know ...

Once you start reading sundry books on the etyms of words, you begin to acknow how much the writers don't truly know ... and can't truly know. They build witcrafty (logical) reasons rooted on sundry things such as when did the word first show up, the meaning, the sound, and does any sound chanj match the held philological chanj ... so on and so forth. Even with all that, it can be mighty murky with words.

And they're not steady with their analysis ... they don't always put the analysis in the same way to all words ... but then "they" is not one but many folks so while one might amazingly giv a word an Anglo-Teut. root; another, in the same kind of circumstance, will giv it a Latin root. Read some of Skeat's analyses. In the body of his work, he might giv a word a Teut. root but then chanj his mind in the addendum and giv it a Latin root. Sometimes his witcraft is spot on ... other times it is rambling and lacking ... but always fetching.

AnWulf Jan-16-2014

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I am seriously beginning to fall out with Etymonline - it links through to things such as dictionary.com and is beginning to become the authority on word history... not great... and by that, I mean poxy :(

Gallitrot Jan-08-2014

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huswifely - (adj) capable; economical; prudent (adv) capably; economically; prudently. ... https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/huswifely

huswife - (verb) to manage with frugality

Liken to "economics": Greek oikonomikos, from oikonomia. Originally a noun, based on oikos ‘house’ (cognate with Latin vicus "district", vicinus "near"; Old English wic "dwelling, village") + nemein ‘manage’, the word denoted household management or a person skilled in this, hence the early sense of the adjective (late 16th cent.) ‘relating to household management’.

AnWulf Dec-04-2013

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Ængelfolc, if you're still out there I hav another odd one for your etym skills.

German trübe, adj., 'turbid, gloomy, dull, dim', from MidHG. truebe, adj. (truobe, adv.), OHG. truobi, adj., 'obscure, gloomy, dull' allied to trüben, 'to darken, tarnish, cast a gloom over', MidHG. trueben, OHG. truoben, 'to darken, sadden'. ... In the non-Teut. languages there are no certain cognates of the Teut. root drōb, 'to confuse'.
Trübsal, n., 'affliction,distress', from MidHG. trüebesal, OHG. truobisal; an abstract of trüben. — Kluge, p369

Then there is Trübel, m., 'confusion, trouble', Mod HG. only, from Fr. trouble.

I don't know the root of the Norwegian and Swedish words (trøbbel and trubbel). They may also be from the French or from the ur-Teut.

If there was a Frankish one, I would think that we'd find something near to it in Dutch but I haven't so far. By the same toke tho, I find nothing near the OF truble in Spanish either which makes me lean towards a Northern France/Frankish root. Old French truble seems nearer to the Teut. root than to Latin turbid in both meaning and lude (sound).

AnWulf Nov-15-2013

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@Jayles ... Yes, thole is a good one that I note. Dree is another one and is found in the phrase "dree one's weird".

@Jasper ... Yes, words come and go. One word that has thankfully fallen out which crops a lot in older writings is "succor" for help, aid. Yuck, what an ugly word. Sadly, we'v lost too many words that I think are pretty good.

AnWulf Nov-14-2013

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I found "thole", the English version of "tolerate".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ulsterscots/words/thole

This might have given us:
"untholing" = intolerant or impatient
"patient" = tholer/tholing
??

jayles the ungreedy Nov-05-2013

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@AnWulf,

Yes, some of those silly rules are nothing but that. And people just accept it without asking why do we do it. I had a Creative Writing teacher in High School whom I was talking to about, if I remember exactly, parallelism for prepositional phrases that I had done in a Humanities Exam. I first said prepositions when I meant prepositional phrase. Then she responded with, more or less, "you can't 'strand' prepositions". I paused at that moment and thought about what she said, but shrugged it off.

As for the older authors, I would think that they would be writing for their audience, and most males, especially those of the higher echelons, knew Latin & Greek. I don't really mind stumbling on a new word, be it Anglo-Saxon, Latin, French, etc. Any word, so long as it serves a purpose, is welcome in my vocabulary, or wordstock.

Jasper Nov-05-2013

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@Jayles ... Yes, more or less, it's true. It is also why grammarians tried to put Latin grammar rules onto English ... don't split the infinitiv; don't end a sentence with a preposition, and so forth. It was in this time that almost any learn'd bod knew Latin so writers would throw in either the Latin word itself (fraternitas) or a English'd take of the Latin word (fraternity). Sometimes when reading writing from that time, I hav to stop and go look up a Latin word that is thrown in like I should know it!

AnWulf Nov-05-2013

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I like both, but I would probably use brotherhood more than fraternity. This mainly because of my unfamiliarity with the word.

Jasper Oct-29-2013

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"During the 17th and 18th centuries, dictionary writers and grammarians generally felt
that English was an imperfect language whereas Latin was perfect. In order to improve
the language, they deliberately made up a lot of English words from Latin words. For
example, fraternity, from Latin fraternitas, was thought to be better than the native
English word brotherhood. "
is the above true?

jayles Oct-29-2013

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https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm

Somwhat more withy benchmarks and guidelines.

jayles Oct-01-2013

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@gallitrot2 Sometimes the system comes up with a message like "name already being used " ; the trick is to add an epithet as a separate word - the post is then accepted. That's why you may see "jayles the unwise" (like ethelred the unredy)

jayles Sep-17-2013

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Well, well, seems someone blocked me from commenting for whatever doltish grounds!

Onefoldly wanted to say @Jayles it's always an upset to see needless Latinish usage when there are a manifold of OE words ready and waiting to fit better and more tightly to a written thought or feeling.

Always a happy happening when my email inbox rings and I see some sterling new bite of information about a wrongly listed OE word or, as I've mistrusted, a terrible bit of random etymology rathering a French provenance over an English wellspring.

gallitrot2 Sep-17-2013

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Of far more noteworthiness is the on-going latinization of English; take a look at this:-
http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=unseemly%2Cinappropriate%2Cunbecoming%2Cunbefitting&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=

or try comparing unseemly, unbecoming, and inappropriate on books.google.com/ngrams

jayles Sep-15-2013

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AnWulf Sep-13-2013

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@jayles ... I truly don't hav a problem with most short Latinates. I haven't found a word that I like better than "prey" when talking the hunted in a dark way. A good for "joy" tho might be win, wyn as in winsome (OE wynsum 'joy' + 'sum').

I'm trying to update my blog on OE Latinates now ... for some unknown reasum, it won't take. Every time I think I'm about done with it, I find more which is not amazing since many of the learnd folks back then were also the clergy who would would hav been steept in Latin.

As for after 1066 borrowings, I think one can see where many came in from the "brushings" so to speak and where many were jammd down. One thing that I do is to see if the word is found in other Teut. tungs. Family is pretty widespred thruout the Teut tungs so I thing that is a fair one tho often it can be workt around ... speaking of round, I'm trying to put the last touches on a blog where I put forth my thoughts on why "round" has a Teut root rather than a Latin one. I'm still beset with net hitches ... My afforder (provider) now says, since swapping in new gear on their end, that I'm out of range? How can I be out of range now when I wasn't before?

As for dialects, yes ... I was looking thru an old wordbook on dialects "A Glossary of North Country Words" (John George) last night and found many fetching words ... hain ... to save, preserve, spare, set aside ... listed as dial Eng. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hain (warning, it seems this isn't wontedly in their free wordbook but it was online today). The writer also says about "cute": cute - quick, intelligent, sly, cunning, clever. Generally thought to be an abbreviation of acute; but, in all probability, direct from OE cuth, expert … p89, Cute [looking over the meaning of cuth in OE, I think he's right].

I'll leav you with another Britishism that fills a gap. I'v been looking for a good word for "corrupt". There is wemm'd (stain'd) but that is unknown and needs a gloss. The other night I was watching "Casino Royal" (James Bond) and in the opening scene, the guy tells Bond, "If M thought I was bent, she'd sent a double-O." Right enuff, we find in the OED: 2 British informal dishonest; corrupt:
a bent cop http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/bent?q=bent If it is good enuff for Bond, it is good enuff for me!

AnWulf Sep-13-2013

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@AnWulf Ah "bod" - a word from my childhood: not really a word I would use in print unless in the wordstring "an odd bod", but wellworth mulling over.
Re your remarks about the OED, I must say that English wordroots are quite muddled and muddling - more Latin in OE than at first sight, more Frankish in French-rooted words, more early Latin borrowings into German. I really think the bod-in-the-street will never know the sundriness of it all, nor know which to choose.
Again, if there were Latinate borrowings into OE before 1066, then one would have to allow some borrowings in the following yearhundreds as an everyday happening where tongues are brushing shoulders so to speak.
Thirdly, our gripe is more about the unneeded academic doublers like mortal,lethal,fatal instead of deadly; so there is no need to uproot short French borrowings like "joy" and try to bring back "frothe", which is no shorter nor in today's world less English.
Out of all this, I would put forward a deem-standard grounded much more on what sounds snobby or academic in today's English, rather than grounded on word-roots.
For instance, the French/Latin birthing of "agree" is scarcely noticeable to a French bod today, so why not just take it in as English, be it a natural or forced borrowing or not. Whilst wordroots may hold you and I in thrall, they and their ilk are of little use to everyday folk.
And lastly there is the slow death of English dialect words afoot today, and I wonder what can or should be done about it, if anything. I do fear that in the end we shall all have the vocabulary of Rambo. The other noteworthy thing is that in England at the last tally there were over three hundred primary schools where not one child had English as their mother tongue. What this bodes for English to-come I dread to think.
:)

jayles Sep-06-2013

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@Jayles ... I'v stumble'd over an answer to frain you put a long time ago ... another word for "person". It's Brit slang but it works most of the time: bod http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/bod?q=bod

AnWulf Sep-06-2013

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@jayles ... How about, "open working hours". The boss is unbending/set/unyielding/hard/stubborn when it comes to pay raises".

@Gallitrot

I know that I keep beating this drum, but the OED's stand on Old English is only an outgrowth of the slant for Latin and French. While I understand why the OED stops at ME for words that it puts into its unshortend wordbook (I don't yeasay it but I understand it), it has led to bad etyms for many, many words.

One must keep in mind, that these etyms hav been done over many years by many folks. All these folks hav been steept in Latin and French but it is eathseen that only a few hav had a good knowledg of OE. This has led to unsteddiness when it comes to etyms. For byspel, dot is from OE dott … dott is found only once in OE yet OE gets the mark for the etym but OE scrutnung (scrutiny) is overlookt even tho we say ˈskro͞otn-ē rather than scru-ti-nee … and OE has scrudnere/scrutnere … a scrutineer.

Service is markt as first showing up in OE … but I can only find it as part of a kenning 'syrfe-treow' – serv(ice)-tree (the OE word for a sorbus). That's ok but then 'cover' is overlookt in Coferflod (Cover-water, the OE name for the Sea of Galilee). It misses many Latinates that first show up in OE and insted puts them down as ME (often thru French).

Often the OED can't hold back from needlessly kowtowing to French. For byspel, false "from OE fals … from Latin falsum … reinforced or re-formed in Middle English from Old French fals …". Now tell me why it was "re-formed" from OF fals rather from OE fals?

Many words are likely, at worst, a blend of OE and either OF or Latin words but nothing is said of any likely OE root. Tally - from Anglo-Norman French tallie, from Latin talea ‘twig, cutting’. What about OE tælian, talian - to count, calculate, reckon, account, consider, think, esteem, value, impute?

And what of the root of the A-N tallie? Is it truly from Latin talea? Is there not a Frankish word along the lines of OFrs. talia? The lack of knowledg of Frankish words and the sheer dearth of known Frankish words greatly hinders the kenseek (research).

Then there words like 'chine' [1]: "from Old French eschine, based on a blend of Latin spina ‘spine’ and a Germanic word meaning ‘narrow piece’, related to shin." … Shin itself is "related to German Schiene ‘thin plate’ and Dutch scheen." Sooo … it seems that 'eschine' truly a Teutonish word that inholds the meaning of the Latin spina. But the true frain is whether or not that meaning came from spina or was alreddy inheld in Frankish word. Liken OE cinu (whence chine [2]) meaning a 'cleft, chink'. Is not a backbone a string of 'clefts' in the back? So now we come full ring … is chine [1] truly from OF eschine or only another meaning from OE cinu? If one is steept in OE, one might say the latter … if one doesn't know OE but knows Latin and French, one might say the former … and thus the conundrum we hav with many words.

Withal there were the "spelling reforms" of the 16th hundyear. Secure is nothing more than the switch to a more Latin spelling of OE sicor (from Latin securus) found in ME also as sikur, yet the OED says nothing of the OE or ME words and only dates it back to the mid 16th hundyear.

Here's one that I found only the other night: 'superhumeral' ... Scrýde bine mid superhumerale and mid alban and stolan and handline and planétan, þ is godwebben cappe, MS. Land 482, f. 48 a.

So now we see the forefast super- show'd up in OE on a Latinate that was thrown in as if others would know what a superhumeral is (over the shoulder vestment).

We hav OE 'pihment' from Latin pigment but the OED says ME not OE (and note the -ment afterfast).

Then there is OE weoþ-mynd ... ME worthmint ... -mint is not a misspelling of Latin -ment!

AnWulf Aug-30-2013

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@Ængelfolc: Thanks. The words you list are fine for true-to-life meanings; I was thinking more of "flexible working hours" or "The boss is very inflexible when it comes to pay rises", where the meaning is carried over to another realm, (like 'flexibel').
On another point, there are two types of yoga teachers: those who say "inhable/exhale" and those who "breathe in/out". The ask is why do they choose one over the other? Sometimes I think is is easier to stress that first wordlimb 'in' or 'ex' so the instruction is clear. Sometimes I think it is just unawaremess and booklearning.
Nobody uses 'hale' instead of 'breath'.

jayles Jul-28-2013

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@jayles: "been looking for a stand-in for flexible for some time"

Flexible: lithe(some), lissome, limber, willowy, bending, yielding, nimble, spry (E. sprack & Swed. sprygg

Ængelfolc Jul-27-2013

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"...the poetry, of Englishmen down to the fourteenth century (with the single and brilliant exception of Laurence Minot, and he was of French origin) is dull, heavy, and only half articulate Their works read like the feeble and clumsy efforts of half-educated country people to express their thoughts. The Norman-French leaven was needed to raise them out of their infantile condition, and to produce the free and powerful speech of a Chaucer. p37"

Wow! This struck me hard as being everything that "Anglishers" are branded for, but they are on the other side; they are internationalists/globalists. This is the height of aloof, self-righteous, smug narrow-minded gall (OE g(e)alla). But, what else should we await from these kinds of folks that are against the keeping and quickening of Ænglisc? What a bunch of bigoted humbugging-quacks!

Ængelfolc Jul-27-2013

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"...the mother tongue was banished from the schoolroom." Isn't this what most "Anglishers" or folks that want less borrowings in English truly are striving against - the loss of first English wordstock? Indeed there may be some that are driven by an over-the-top, waspish nationalism. The greater of them I think want to win back the words and meanings that have been seemingly lost, and keep the ones that are still in English, even though they been rare in speech and writing.

Can English be called English without its first wordstock? The name Frenc(i)sc became French, which only has 10-15% Frankish wordstock, so maybe English should be called something else since it is so full of fremd borrowings as "Academia" would have us believe? English to me means the Germanic tongue, the folks in England, and the West Germanic folks from N Germany/ S Denmark who invaded and settled large parts of E and N England beginning about the year 410.

Let's see...how about something Latin-ish? Folks that think the overmuch borrowing is needed to make the tongue "richer", their tongue can be called Anglicē (i.e. Globalish, "Modern English"). Afterall, if it is so Latinized, it is not true English, and therefore should have a Latin name, right?

Ængelfolc Jul-27-2013

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Should You Angle for Anglo-Saxon, or Enlighten with Latin?
by Mark Nichol

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/should-you-angle-for-anglo-saxon-or-enlighten-with-latin/

AnWulf Jul-26-2013

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Again, Anwulf, I find myself somewhat bedazzled by your skill at plucking out meaningful and sibly chunks of writing :)

Has anyone read this foreword on the OED site, as to the grounds for which Old English words are inbodied and which left out?

http://public.oed.com/aspects-of-english/english-in-time/old-english-in-the-oed/

Gallitrot May-25-2013

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Since the net is down at my house (I'm in town right now), I'v been reading: "A Biographical History of English Literature" ... from 1873 I think (there's no date on the title page).

A few qwotes:

The Norman monks looked upon English books ("Anglo- Saxon MSS.") as "old and useless," and cleaned the writing off the parchment with pumice stone, and then used it for their own documents. … A Biographical History of English Literature, p18

Nay; so far did the Normans carry their oppression, that little boys at school were obliged to translate their Latin into French, and the mother tongue was banished from the schoolroom. p26

And it is a fact worthy of special — notice that between 1350 and 1485 the English language had changed so much that the old version of John de Trevisa was almost unintelligible. … In fact, the vocabulary of the English language was changing; it was becoming extremely Latinised, and the genuine English words of Trevisa were falling into forgetfulness. Mr.Marsh mentions that Caxton's "Game of the Chesse", contains three times as many French words as the "Morte d'Arthur" of Sir Thomas Malory.

That the sixteenth century was the time of pedantio quotation, many books being crammed with Latin quotations, often more numerous than the original matter. p93

But from the beginning of the sixteenth to the middle of the seventeenth centuries, "it is probable," says Mr. Wright, "that the great mass of the reading public were as well acquainted with Latin as with their own mother tongue." And, within the same period, *** it came to be the fashion to use Latin words in an English shape*** to an enormous extent. It was extremely easy to do this. A writer had only to take the root of a Latin word, and give an English ending and a slightly English look, and the thing was done. p117

Sir Thomas Browne ..., " We shall, within a few years, be fain ***to learn Latin to understand English***, and a work will prove of equal facility in either." p118

This use, then, of Latin words had got, not only into written, but into spoken, language; it had made its way into the Court, into the bar, and into the pulpit. It was ***practised and was understood by every one who had the slightest claim to education***. Spenser lived in the midst of all this; and, as himself a learned man and a courtier, he could not have resisted its influence. And thus Spenser could not help using Latin expressions ***where English would have done equally well***. p119

... a " Person of Quality " in the last century finds it necessary, on the contrary, to rid him of his " Saxon dialect ;" p120

And so that you'll know that the writer wasn't a Saxonist:

It will also be plain to the reader that all the poetry and prose, but more especially the poetry, of Englishmen down to the fourteenth century (with the single and brilliant exception of Laurence Minot, and he was of French origin) is dull, heavy, and only half articulate Their works read like the feeble and clumsy efforts of half-educated country people to express their thoughts. The Norman-French leaven was needed to raise them out of their infantile condition, and to produce the free and powerful speech of a Chaucer. p37

And Johnson (or wordbook gefrain) said in a foreword to his wordbook, somewhat ironically given that he was writing in a latinate hevy way:

… let them, … endeavour, with all their influence, to stop the licence of translators, whose idleness and ignorance, ***if it be suffered to proceed, will reduce us to babble a dialect of France***.

AnWulf May-25-2013

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@Jayles ... You're always wondering about those Latinates in OE ... Here is a qwick and ruff list: http://anwulf.blogspot.com/2013/05/old-english-latinates.html

AnWulf May-25-2013

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Good on you, Anwulf!

That's actually probably more effective than musing about 'likely' modern Old English words. Anglophones tend to have a finite nostalgic streak and that runs reaches just far enough to start trendily quoting and using words-of-yore - especially as Barnes is aweheld/revered... however, trying to get them to think that bit more out of the box and resurrect Old English words is like trying to get them to eat horse meat - agonised faces and repulsion. A funny lot are Englishtonglers :)

Gallitrot May-10-2013

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You can also note "bendy" for flexible ... http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bendy

I hav been putting together as many words from William Barnes as I can find. It's a long list! Some of the words are clumsy but others might work.

Here's one: skyedge for horizon

AnWulf May-10-2013

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For 'flexible, pliable', try "bendsome" ... http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bendsome

AnWulf May-07-2013

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We need to be more withy in our thinking, to have more withiness in our mindset.
(been looking for a stand-in for flexible for some time)

jayles May-03-2013

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I found another OE word for "amber" -> eolcfang (abt. 1106).

There are many, many "Old Northern/Norman French" words that are of Norse or Frankish Ursprung. Most Francophone's would never give in to that truth.

Look at what are taken as "French" names like Aubert, Hugh, Louis, Henri, Robert, Roger, Reynard, Reynold (Renaud), Raymond, Charles, Lambert, Baudoin, Bélanger, Colbert, Hébert, Guillory, Monet, Thibault, Thiérry (Thiéry), and so on and so forth. They are all Germanic (mostly Frankish) names that were muddled owing to the way the French speak. There are too many to list here.

Ængelfolc Apr-28-2013

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Looks like we can keep 'huge' ... I alway thought it might hav a Teutonic root:

From Middle English huge, from Old French ahuge (“high, lofty, great, large, huge”), from a hoge (“at height”), from a (“at, to”) + hoge (“a hill, height”), from Frankish *haug, *houg (“height, hill”) or Old Norse haugr (“hill”), both from Proto-Germanic *haugaz (“hill, mound”), from Proto-Indo-European *koukos (“hill, mound”). Akin to Old High German houg (“mound”) (whence German Hügel (“hill”)), Icelandic haugr (“mound”), Lithuanian kaukaras (“hill”), Old High German hōh (“high”) (whence German hoch), Old English hēah (“high”)

AnWulf Apr-26-2013

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@jayles ... You might find this list a little handier, only be aware that there are a few small mistakes (like he has some in left column that hav Teutonic roots): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Asarla%C3%AD/Germanic_and_Latinate_equivalents_in_English

@Ængelfolc ... Good link to the book. I'm going to read the whole thing later. He also wonders about the acofrian/recover link. Good to know that I'm not alone on that one!

He made me wonder about cemp/camp ... When one looks up camp, it says that German Kampf and OE cemp(a) come from ur-Germanic which they then say got it from Latin (campus) ... from the PIE root of *kemp ... Whoa ... if that is the PIE root, then I see no reasum why it didn't the ur-Gm didn't come from the PIE rather than thru Latin. Heck, if one borrow'd from the other then my guess is that Latin borrow'd it ... But I think the better way is to say that they both came from the PIE root.

Furthermore, I'll take a bold step forward and guess that the French champion is as much rooted, if not wholly rooted, on a Frank shape of the PIE *kemp rather than only from Latin campus.

AnWulf Apr-26-2013

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Acover is not the same as OF couvrir "to cover something". It is akin to 'recuperate.' Grimm does write that OHG irkoborōn is from L. recuperare [pg. 1235, "Deutsche Grammatik, Volume 4" (1896) by Jacob Grimm

ME acover

Ængelfolc Apr-25-2013

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"Amber wasn't chosen as the root for electricity for its color but for its properties ... You rub amber and you get static electricity."

Right. I learned that in grade school, but it still seems odd to call it "amber" in Greek/Latin, unless the word means something like, "energy made by rubbing amber and cloth together." I guess no odder than Germanic folk calling it "burn-stone" since it will burn when heated.

"The Greek name for amber was ἤλεκτρον (elektron), "formed by the sun", and it was connected to the sun god (Helios), one of whose titles was Elector or the Awakener."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber (*Wikipedia Source: King, Rev. C.W. (1867). The Natural History of Gems or Decorative Stones. Cambridge (UK). p. 315.)

Ængelfolc Apr-25-2013

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Amber wasn't chosen as the root for electricity for its color but for its properties ... You rub amber and you get static electricity. Amber in Latin is electrum (from Greek, ήλεκτρο (ilektro)). From that, Gilbert then made the Latin word electricus, whence electric, whence electricity.

We often call it 'power' or 'current' ... both Latinates. Sometimes one might say the 'light bill' insted of the 'electric bill'. (In Spanish, informally it's call 'luz' (light) insted of electricidad.)

He could hav chose glær and latin it ... glaeric or with a more OE ending, glaerlic, that would hav lookt latinish.

AnWulf Apr-24-2013

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Oops I meant this list:
wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Latinates_of_Germanic_origin

jayles Apr-23-2013

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@Ængelfolc ... Here's another one for your etym skills. Here is one that has bother'd me for a long time … and I still don't know what to make of it, but I still play with it from time to time.

OE acofrian; p. ode; pp. od To recover; convalesce: -- Wunda opene raþe ácofriað (exalanf), belocene þearle wundiað
[Uorto acoueren his heale, A. R. 364. O. H. Ger. ar-koborōn.]

… swap v for f and you hav 'acover' (ME acoveren, acouren [OE cofrian, corresp. to OHG ir-koborn]) … so some shape of 'cover' is seen in OE and hints at a *cofrian … or is the OHG from a PGmc, from the PIE and thus has nothing to do with the French/Latin? I don't know. … Or the OF 'covir' is from a Frankish word (rather than Latin) from the PGmc or a blend of Frankish and Latin?

Recover is found in AN French with the same meaning as 'acover'. Is 'recover' truly from Latin recuperare or from the OE 'acover' with the re- insted of a-? I think the latter.

AnWulf Apr-23-2013

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"Electric(-ity)"

Funny enough, G. Bernstein "amber" [G. der Schwefel "sulfur"] and ON brennusteinn "amber" [Icelandic brennisteinn "sulfur"] share the same root as OE brynstān "sulfur" [E. brimstone].

Almost looks like 'electric' might've been misnamed. 'Electricity' doesn't have a yellowish-reddish-brown hue to me at all. I wonder what William Gilbert was thinking or truly saw.

In Old English, there were two words for 'amber' stuff: eolhsand "amber, electrum" [maybe also "gold and silver alloy"] and glær "amber resin" .

Some word-lorists have put forth that the 'eolh-' was a way for the Germanic folk to say the Greek ēlektrōn, with 'sand' on the end because that is where amber is found. So, 'ēlek' (which the Germans may have heard Gmc. 'eolh,' meaning "elk," and dropped the unknown ending (to them) '-tron' + Gmc. sand (where amber is found - in the sand) -> ēleksand -> eolhsand.

The go further and say that the knowledge of 'amber' (and hence the word) came to Germanic through the Greeks Bronze Age trading on the West coast of Jutland [in which the Celts played 'middleman' for the Greeks*]. I think in Ur-Germanic there was also 'glesum' said for amber.

* Hyperboreans: Myth and History in Celtic-Hellenic Contacts (2004) by Timothy P. Bridgman

In German, we say 'der Strom' [E. stream], but also have borrowed 'die Elektrizität'.

Ængelfolc Apr-23-2013

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@jayles:

What do you mean "they all look latinate?"

Ængelfolc Apr-23-2013

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https://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/ List_of_Germanic_and_Latinate_equivalents_in_English

So just how can everyone recall which are ok and which not when they all look latinate?

jayles Apr-23-2013

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Another fetching word I saw yestern ... riff ... upspring unknown ... might be from 'refrain' but more like a back-shaping from riffle.

Here is the passage: ... a brilliant sci-fi '''riff''' on what happens after the end of privacy nearly ruins everything.


Riff
Synonyms
interpretation, take, variation

Related Words
version; adaptation, translation
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/riff

AnWulf Apr-21-2013

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@Jayles ... I don't know if it would help to teach that -fer latinates can also be thought of as the same light as the word for ferry.

Ferian was a well noted verb in OE. (Ger. führen, Dan. føre: Swed. föra: Icel. ferja to transport)
ferian, ferigan, ferigean, fergan; to ferianne; p. ode, ede; pp. od, ed [fer = fær a journey]. I. to carry, convey, bear, lead, conduct;

As was faren (fare ... Ger. fahren, faren)
FARAN, to farenne; ic fare, ðú farest, færest, færst, færsþ, he fareþ, færeþ, færþ, pl. faraþ; p. fór, pl. fóron; pp. faren, A word expressing every kind of going from one place to another, hence I. to go, proceed, travel, march, sail

Infer (from Latin in+fer ... to bring in) means "deduce or conclude (information) from evidence and reasoning rather than from explicit statements: [ with clause ] : from these facts we can infer that crime has been increasing." ... From the thesaurus (Anglo words): gather, understand, take it; read between the lines; informal reckon.

Most ink-horn words were either taken in or put together by Englishmen, true enuff. However, most were done so willy-nilly with the ettle (purpose, intent) of bringing in more latinates ... no other true reasum. Scientific words like electricity (1600 - William Gilbert) were done so with forethought to fill a nook. It was built on the Greek word for amber ( ήλεκτρο (ilektro)). He could hav chosen the Anglo word: glær. But he didn't.

And let's not forget all the French words (most latinates) brought in by Charles and his ilk after the "Restoration". ... They had been living in France during the years of exile.

AnWulf Apr-21-2013

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@Ængelfolc ... I thought that you might find this fetching. It's a slideshow put in a PDF file: http://vennemann.userweb.mwn.de/Vennemann_2005_07_13.pdf from a talk: rtsp://stream.lrz-muenchen.de/lmu/LingKoll_2005_07_13.mp4 about a mightlic semitic link to some Germanic/Ur-Germanic words.
It's all guesswork but then what isn't when dealing with such deep roots?

AnWulf Apr-21-2013

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@jayles: You are right!

infer = in + L. ferō “bear, carry; suffer” < Ur.In.Eu *bʰer- “to bear, carry” > Ur.Gmc *beraną/*barōną "bring forth, to bear, to carry" (whence OE beran, ON bera, Gothic baíran) > ME beren > E. bear

Also akin to Russian беременная (berémennaya) “pregnant” and L. ferre (see L. ferō )

OE ferian "to take somewhere, to ferry, to carry, to bear" > ME ferien > E. ferry

They all have the same Ur.In.Eu root *per-, *por- "to go, to carry, to go forth, forwards" [Ur.Gmc. *farō, *fer], that's why it is a bit addled. So, Old English could've yielded it, too.

Ængelfolc Apr-20-2013

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@AnWulf I thought 'fer' (ferro/ferre) was related to 'bear' in English and 'fare' to 'fahren' in German?
"I'd hav to how your noting the others to get a feel for the meaning so that I could find another word." -> no it's okay; it's just that in teaching English as a second tongue there comes a time towards the upper standards when it may be helpful to deal with the meaning of latin roots, latin forefasts, and latin afterfasts, just so that learners have some hooks to hang the wordstock on in their minds. So for instance one may begin with 'port' or 'pose' or 'cede' and go thru all the same-rooted words to build patterns. To me this is the bane of teaching English - when one ends up indeed teaching latin instead!

jayles Apr-20-2013

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@Ængelfolc in the gelt-world 'short-term' is wont to mean less than a year; and 'long-term' to mean over five years. However in accounting 'current liablities' may also include stock such as spare parts which might not be used up within one year; it is jargon with a technical meaning from cross-border accounting standards. Google "IAS 1" for all the bollocks like:
"Current liabilities are those expected to be settled within the entity's normal operating cycle or due within 12 months, or those held for trading, or those for which the entity does not have an unconditional right to defer payment beyond 12 months."
So it makes it tricky to change the terminology.....

jayles Apr-20-2013

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@jayles: "There seems little point in tossing out words like "tax" and "term" (as in short-term,long-term)."

Well, I am with you about the word "tax" - that was a thought brought to the Germanics folks by the Romans, much like building houses and streets out of stone, wine-growing, and pepper. My least-loved of these is "tax." Although I wish it were called "tithe," and meant as such; giving one-tenth to any Body should be the utmost edge! :-)

Short-/Long-Term are okay Germanic-Latin words, but what about:

"Long-Term" >> unending, lasting, longstanding, abiding, long-time.

"Short-Term" >> stopgap, makeshift, short-time, fleeting.

Ængelfolc Apr-20-2013

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@AnWulf:

On After 1066 Latin Words:

1. Right on!
2. What do you mean here?
3. I think this is a great one - if it was taken in by many Germanic tongues, then there must be something to it being borrowed.
4. This is most meaningful - English words taken out of the tongue should be brought back into the fold.
5. This is one that is tricky, and I think you've lost me on this one. Most, if not all, of the ink-horn words were founded by Englishmen!

The Ancrene Wisse is most enthralling. I'll have to give it a read. Thanks!

Ængelfolc Apr-20-2013

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@Jayles - 'term' is likely ok. Even overlookt by the OED and others, there is OE termen, es; m — A term, fixed date

Sometimes yu come full circul (OE circul from Latin circulum) … infer: from Latin inferre ‘bring in, bring about’ (in medieval Latin‘deduce’), from in- ‘into’ + ferre ‘bring’.

To make the same word from OE then in + fer (the root of ferian - to carry, convey, bring ['ferry']) which would giv "infer". So yu'd come up with the same word!

It's late and I'm truly tire'd, but for 'suffer' as to endure; there is 'thole' and 'dree'.

A referee or umpire would be a 'daysman'.
Prefer would be to 'forebear' (not forbear') ... That pesky for-, fore-.

I'd hav to how your noting the others to get a feel for the meaning so that I could find another word. It's seldom that you get a 'one bigness (size) fits all' word swap.

AnWulf Apr-19-2013

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BTW inside the software, same-meaning words can be useful. But "wageslip" need a joining-mark or it reads as "wages-lip" not wage-slip!

jayles Apr-19-2013

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@Ængelfolc: "1) "while that's all right between you and me it won't wash in the real world." > Warum?"
Als ich noch jung war (und Dinosauren die Erde herrschten),... in those days in England we used terms like "stock", "creditors", "debtors", "daybook". However English accounting textbooks were something out of the dark ages, so we all used the American ones - with "inventories", "accounts payable", "receivables", "journal", and of course the likes of KPMG, PWC, Deloittes use these terms all the time., so it's standard jargon now. One might get away with the older terms in an email, but not if one is writing payroll or general ledger software - it just would not be saleable.
This is what I meant by the "real" world.

4) "I'm afraid not all debits are outlays" > How so? All "debits" mean money owed to someone or some business, right? How can any holding of worth ("asset") be a 'debit'?
On the balance sheet (or "Statement of Assets and Liabilities", assets are on the leftside (debits) liabilities on the rightside (credits). Accounting can be as maddeningly mysterious as English!

jayles Apr-19-2013

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@AnWulf "For aft-1066 latinates:...." I take on board the broad thrust of your standpoint.
There seems little point in tossing out words like "tax" and "term" (as in short-term,long-term). Much better to hone in on the horde of latinate borrowings that came later, like refer,prefer,infer, confer,suffer and their branch-words (derivatives) - referee, referral, reference. Trying to find stand-ins for these and all the -pose, -vert, -gress, -port words is task enough indeed.

jayles Apr-19-2013

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