Proofreading Service - Pain in the English
Proofreading Service - Pain in the English

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Proofreading Service - Pain in the English
Proofreading Service - Pain in the English

Your Pain Is Our Pleasure

24-Hour Proofreading Service—We proofread your Google Docs or Microsoft Word files. We hate grammatical errors with passion. Learn More

“Anglish”

Has anyone come across “Anglish”? Anglish or Saxon is described as “...a form of English linguistic purism, which favours words of native (Germanic) origin over those of foreign (mainly Romance and Greek) origin.”

Does anybody have an opinion or thoughts on “Anglish”...

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*we must be fulfillful of the fowl filled sky above. Fly!*

Stanmund Apr-05-2011

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Thought-stirring:

I am reading a good book about loanwords in tongues across the World (written in 2009), and it marks where English is weakest: Social & Political, Law, and Modern World words. Also, 40% of words about sickness/illness and the inner organs are loanwords. The other 60% are Germanic (or 'native').

As for English overall, English is still about 2/3 Germanic (Anglo-Saxon, Scandinavian, Dutch/Frisian, Frankish, asf.) even with all of the borrowing from French (25%), Latin (8%) and, to my shock, Greek (1.6%). Celtic, of any kind, makes up only .032% of English words.

Germanic far outweighs any other tongue when looking at the first 5000 words (upwards of 54% in any group inbetween). Between 5001 and 6000, though, English (Germanic) only makes up about 34% of those words.

All pronouns, conjunctions, and modal auxiliaries commonly used in English are Germanic.

Food for thought. More later...Cheers!

Ængelfolc Apr-08-2011

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Another striking thing in this book is the list of borrow-rates from highest to lowest.

Tongue with the highest? Selice Romani (with just over 84% coming from Hungarian). The lowest? Mandarin Chinese.

Old High German, to my shock, was the second lowest! Indeed, the only true Celtic loanword in Old High German is Old Irish 'brunna' (armor)-cf. the Germanic name Brunhild(a). Old French gave only one: kussin ("pillow", cf. Ger. Kissen) and Italian, also one: zuckar ("sugar", cf. Ger. Zucker). The rest of the loanwords in Old High German are Latin from the Romans.

English was ranked fifth (when reckoning the Scandinavian (markedly Old Danish), German, Dutch/Frisian, Frankish, Gothic and other Germanic tongues that had bearing on English as loanwords).

Sadly, while the book does talk about the "back borrowing" through Norman-French, the writers seem to not have taken those words out of the French pool. If they would have done so, French (Vulgar-Gaulish-Latin) might only be at about 20%, not 25% of English loanwords.

Also the top five categories for borrowing:

1. Religion/Beliefs
2. Grooming/Fashion
3. House and Home
4. Law
5. Political and Social

One can see why French and Latin are greatly borrowed into every tongue, not just English. Anyway, Ænglisc is still very much a Germanic tongue in all ways, and rightfully so.

Funny enough, English uses loanwords to make Germanic-style compound words like 'television', telephone, motorcycle, asf. Another showing of the Germanicness of English.

The book put forth that speakers of British English are more laid-back about borrowings in English. Why? The writer notes students of British schools are not usually taught the history of English (it's rare he writes), so they take for granted that every word spoken is English. I have written it before: academia is the problem to overcome.

Hopefully, this will give more insight into the Ænglisc debate.

Ængelfolc Apr-08-2011

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There was a map prepared for the Treaty of Trianon which showed the distribution of languages in "Greater Hungary" at the time. The remarkable feature was how mixed the distributions was,,, and still is. As one travels in this area, one village is Hungarian, the next Romani, another historically schwab, the next Slovak and so on. E.g Komarno/ Komarom, Acs etc... (Although I understand it was not clever to speak schwab in public under the Russian occupation). Hungarian itself has many borrowings from inter alia slav, and turkic. eg csutortok (thursday) and szerda are slav, vasar is our word bazaar from turkic. The core finno-ulgric words are few indeed. But it doesn't seem to bother them! English has a more open-door attitude to borrowings, particularly from French, although there are a few words from Hungarian like hussar, saber, coach. I like to think "bimbo" is too - it means bud or nipple. ;=))
For me the difficulty with English now is the plethora (Gk) of prefixes.
We have English, Latin and Greek, down, de-, cata-, and so on.
If we attempt to transfer the word transfer to English we get "crossbear" (or a cross bear) or overbearing which already has a meaning, Refer becomes backbear, or bareback or someting confusing. I have no argument with wishing to get rid of many latinate words, the problem is twofold: 1) finding an intelligible substitute and I submit that many "anglishisms" are just not easily understood by hoi polloi (gk), although I like "wordstock" just the vogue word is now lexis. 2) how in reality would one persuade people to make the change and if one succeeded wouldn't that render twentieth century english unintelligable to our greatgreatgrandchildren
Finally of course the answer is for schoolchildren everywhere to go back to learning Greek and latin as they used to in the good old days!
And finally finally what's the difference between a diphthong and a monothong?
The latter is worn by Brazilians girls on the beach.

jayles Apr-09-2011

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Cool thing about "coach":

English coach is from M.Fr. coche. The French got it from German kotsche, Kutsche, and the Germans borrowed it from Hungarian kocsi (kosci szekér, "cart from Kocs"). Kocs is a village in Komárom-Esztergom, Hungary, where coaches were first made.

Saber follows the same Magyar-> German -> French path to English. I vote we keep these borrowed words in English. ;-)

Ængelfolc Apr-09-2011

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Cool thing about "coach":

English coach is from M.Fr. coche. The French got it from German Kotsche, Kutsche, and the Germans borrowed it from Hungarian kocsi (kosci szekér, "cart from Kocs"). Kocs is a village in Komárom-Esztergom, Hungary, where coaches were first made.

Saber follows the same Magyar-> German -> French path to English. I vote we keep these borrowed words in English. ;-)

Ængelfolc Apr-09-2011

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One thing to add about Sabre/Saber: In the Magyar Lexicon (1833) the writer seems to think that szabni (to cut) is originally Wallachian.

So, maybe the path, stemming from szabni, is Romanian-> Magyar-> German-> French-> English?

Thoughts about this?

Ængelfolc Apr-09-2011

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Ængelfolc: re szabni (as in szabo a tailor) .. muss aber gestehen dass... actually I know very little Romanian as such, always been more interested in Csango - the kaval, moldvai furulyas, tilinka stb. and the dances themselves, which are markedly different from magyar nepzene.
I myself have long been interested in etymology but found little use for it in real life, even when teaching English. Obviously you too are interested; I have been wondering (as English do) whether this is just a hobby, or there is some "real" or "career-related" purpose in your quest?

jayles Apr-09-2011

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Ængelfolc: A) When arriving from outer space, the most striking thing about this blue planet is the way in which homo sapiens (?!) has overrun it. As one of the few predators at the top of the pyramid, biologists reckon there should be only half a million of us to keep the prey/predator ratio in balance. With Medaeval agriculture the population of England hovered below the three million mark, unable to produce food for more. Now with oil-based fertilisers etc we support billions. So for me the number one problem is overpopulation. (shades of Lebensraum!) Watch world food prices! etc.
And on a personal level either be rich or live somewhere where there's enough to eat.
Now how does "Anglish" or plain-speaking fit into all this??? Not that relevant IMHO.
B) Sometimes I think we would be better off with NO history and NO etymology. Culturally poorer perhaps, but with no hangover excuses to fight wars and destroy each other. If we didn't know that "offer" came from latin it wouldn't bother us.
Okay enough preaching...

jayles Apr-09-2011

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/All pronouns, conjunctions, and modal auxiliaries commonly used in English are Germanic/


/I have written it before: academia is the problem to overcome/


Indeed. What the heck is a 'pronoun' 'conjunction' and 'modal auxiliary' when they're at home? Do English words exist for these within Anglish academia? I reckon most homeborn English speakers haven't got the foggiest to what they mean. One of the most overriding things to do for Anglish, is to translate these kind of grammar terms.

Stanmund Apr-10-2011

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Pronoun (Latin overbringing from Greek 'antononymia'): L. Pro- (in place of) + L. nomen (name). So, rightfully in English it should be 'steadname' or 'forname'(Cf. Danish 'stedord', Icelandic Fornöfn lit.'for-name').

Conjunction (Latin overbrining from Greek 'syndesmos'): L. com- ('together'; Cf. O.E./German 'ge-') + L. jugare ('to join'). So, in English it could be 'yokeword' or 'bind(ing)word'. Cf. Danish 'bindeord', Nynorsk 'bindeord', Dutch 'voegwoord', German 'Fügewort'.

Auxiliary, verb: Latin augere "to increase", as in 'give help to'. In English we could simply say help verb, but 'verb' is still Latin.

So, given that, we could say 'help-being-word' and 'help-work/do-word'. Another way would be 'help-time-word'. Cf. German 'Hilfszeitwort (Verb is 'Tunwort', 'Tätigkeitswort', 'Tuwort', 'Zeitwort'), Frysk Helptiidwurd, Icelandic Hjálparsögn, Dutch Hulpwerkwoord.

Modal Auxiliary Verb (modal

Ængelfolc Apr-10-2011

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Stanmund: Most homeborn English speaker have little need to learn this terminology.
However they are useful when teaching English to other people. Sometimes we can use the term "helping" verb but if teaching romance language speakers "auxiliary" is more intelligible. They are in the end just labels. I teach "nine" modal verbs in English - can, could, shall. should, will, would, may, might, and must. Once students have learnt the label "modal" it is easier to use than enumerating the list every time. So they are just technical terms for a particular purpose. "linking words" is often used instead of conjunctions. However the essence of the problem for students is to distinguish between a conjunction and a "linking" adverb like "however" and which starts a new sentence. Since students have often learnt "conjunction" in their own country and it is used in all the dictionaries, it would be a hard word to change. I don't teach the word pronoun, don't seem to need it

jayles Apr-10-2011

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Aside: the "nine" modal verbs in English - can, could, shall. should, will, would, may, might, and must---are all Germanic!

Ængelfolc Apr-10-2011

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I'm cathcing up...one at a time! ;-) Okay...

"If we attempt to transfer the word transfer to English we get "crossbear" (or a cross bear) or overbearing which already has a meaning..."

Transfer: L. trāns- (beyond, across, through, cross) + L. ferre (to bear, to carry).

Now, good English speakers will want to take 'cross, across' off the list, even though this word came from Latin-> Old Norse -> Old Irish-> Old English. Maybe we can bring O.E. rōd "cross" back. "Carry" is Latin so that out. There are already many words in English that can mean 'transfer':

* shift (to, over)
* bring (to, over)
* forward (to, over to)
* ferry (over, to)
* hand (to, over)
* haul, lug ( little more folksy)

"Property Transfer" (Latin all the way) = "Shifiting Trust" (Germanic all the way). Indeed, we can always bring some Old English words back into the mix, too, if one likes.

Ængelfolc Apr-10-2011

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yes indeed these nine modal verbs are all Germanic. There are other structures that are modal in meaning like "have to" but these modal verbs do not have "s" on the 3rd person singular present. Maybe because originally they were past in form much like must was originally past subjunctive "muesste". Grammar terms like noun, verb, subject object would be really difficult to change given their widespread use, Some bright spark tried to introduce "present progressive" instead of "present continuous" and some textbooks use it to the confusion of student and teacher alike. Changing labels leads to confusion just like wrong labels on your suitcase lose your baggage at the airport.

jayles Apr-10-2011

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Ængelfolc: Trust and transfer have two VERY different meanings when dealing with property. Trustee in hungarian is er, er, er, gondnok I think....

jayles Apr-10-2011

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@jayles:

"Gondnok" is executor. "Megbízott" is trustee.

Why liken 'transfer' and 'trust'? Shouldn't you be looking at 'transfer' and 'shifting'? If you think 'trust' means something else, then there are others words in English:

For 'property': holdings, landholdings, land(s) & buildings, asf.

That yields "shifting land ownership", " moving land ownership", "landholdings ownership shift", asf.

"Shifting Land Trust" may still be okay, too, by putting 'land' in there. Englsih can do without 'transfer' and 'property' IMHO.

Ængelfolc Apr-10-2011

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The only thing hard about switching the 'stæfcræft' names is getting them by all of the naysayers in Academia. Understanding would be much easier! Maybe folks would like and understand 'stæfcræft' a lot better. Ænglisc is well thought out and straightforward.

One can look to sister Germanic tongues for ways in which to make the new 'stæfcræft' words.

Subject ---> German 'Satzgegenstand', Dutch 'Onderwerp'.

Adjective ---> Danish 'Tillægsord', German 'Eigenschaftswort' (also 'Wiewort' for kids), Icelandic 'Lýsingarorð' (lit. description words), Nynorsk 'Eigenskapsord', Frysk Eigenskipswurden.

The German, Icelandic, Frysk, and Nynorsk all have the same basic meaning.

Adverb ---> Danish 'biord', German 'Umstandswort' (Nebenwort), Dutch 'bijwoord'.

I like the German since it is very clear. It literally means "circumstances, situation, happenstance word".

Again, Academia (somewhere) would have to get behind it. Start small...one word at a time.

Das war's für jetzt!

Ængelfolc Apr-10-2011

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Ængelfolc: Yes indeed I misunderstood you. Trustee: actually my dictionary suggests ce'lvagyonkezeköje but I've never used it. Megbizhatatlan vagy! is useful when your partner is sleeping around.
Legal terms for property are quite specific in their meaning: real property (estate), chose-in-possession, chose-in-action, goods, chattels etc. Onc should not confuse or muddy the waters here. I think "handover" might be a good starting point for conveyancing.

However "bank transfer" ie internet banking is now a common usage, as is "transferor" transferee". The issue here is the latinate words have acquired specific collocations and usages, which would be hard to mimic.

jayles Apr-10-2011

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@jayles:

You are right..."megbízott vagyonkezelője" is like an appointed trustee ("megbízott" meaning agent)...I think...

Ængelfolc Apr-10-2011

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Ængelfolc: "Trustee" is a good illustration of how fraught tinkering with language can be.
I refer you to the relevant page in wikipedia which contains beautiful norman expressions such as "cestui qui trust" , and "feoffor to uses".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_(law)
Quite what equals what in hungarian depends on which legal system is under discussion, common law or roman law. But definitely no "one size fits all" solution here.
As to "subject" in its grammatical meaning I was going to suggest "do-er" for subject, "do-ee" for object and "doing-word" for verb, which might be clearer. One of the claims of Anglish is that it would be clearer, and the meaning could be deduced from the constituent parts. If this is NOT the case there is no good reason to change. So for example "underwarp" "undercast" "underthrown" are no more intelligible than "subject" so why changel? However "wordstock" is readily deduced than "vocabulary" or "lexis", so a change has some merit. In short one could never convince "academia" unless there is some definite long-term benefit.
Adjective and adverb are sometimes described as "noun modifier" and "verb modifier" respecitively in textbooks. Not that this helps the studen much!

jayles Apr-11-2011

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'doing word' or doingword has far more gettaness than 'verb' I believe grammar is a field where Anglish can and should eathly set forth it's worthiness.

I don't rightly get the full meaning of 'modifer' but if going on nowaday meaning of the 'were' bit of 'werewolf' would something like 'were-doingword' work for 'verb modifier'

Stanmund Apr-12-2011

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Anything with "-ee" may not fly with "Anglishers", since it is from Anglo-Fr. "-é ". I think it a useful ending, though. Anyway, I understand what you are saying, but I think there are other words that can be used.

Take "trustee". Why not use "steward", "keeper", "caretaker", or even the French-warped "guardian" (Frankish *wardon)? At one time, British and American English used "warder" to mean "trustee". Why not bring it back to life? The word "trust" comes to English from Old Norse "teysta" (from "traust"), so no strife there. Funny thing about "feofee" is that it is still used in Ipswich, Massachusetts! The root is Anglo-French "feoff" which is Old French "fief" (from *Frankish/ Old High German *fehu- ).

In English, there are too many words that can mean the same thing. The word "fiduciary" shows well what I mean. "Give" and "Take" be better law words I think.

"Beneficiary" means 'someone that gains something', so why not 'taker' or 'gainer' ('gain' form Old Norse gagn + Frankish *waidanōnan) or something like that?

Where there is a will, there is a way. (good all English saying)!

Ængelfolc Apr-12-2011

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Oops...Old Norse "treysta"

Ængelfolc Apr-12-2011

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I WAS going to suggest "do-er" "do-ee" but realized that with a passive verb the subject is the "do-ee" so the whole concept falls apart. Forgot to mention that!
"Carry" apparently comes from "car" which comes from a Gaulish word - Welsh "carr". Now here is an opportunity to include our real heritage!. Carry is fully anglicized ie it operates as a phrasal verb and in compounds using English prefixes. So we have "carry out" (an order); a carryout bag; a carryover {from a previous period), carrier bag; carrier etc.
We could then substitute "carry" for "--fer" so transfer becomes carry over, or carry across. etc. Now this may indeed not suit the purists, but it WOULD be more intelligible.
Believe me there is nothing worse (mildly overblown!) than teaching non-native non-romance speakers words like transfer, confer, refer, infer, offer, relate, translate, maintain, retain, maintenance, contain, contents, retention, contention, extension, intent, intension, attention, attend, pretend, sustain, subtend, invert, pervert, revert, convert, extravert, avert, concede, succeed, proceeds, precedent, recede, recession, concession, accession, accede, decide, recipient, participant, perceive, receive, deceive, reception, deception perception, gaudeamus igitur.... endless endless latin
Who killed English?

jayles Apr-12-2011

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Teaching a Korean nun: almost my first words were: how much latin do you know? So we moved from "benedictus" to benefit to beneficiary.. Nunc dimittis.....

jayles Apr-12-2011

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The 'were-' bit is broadly taken to mean 'man' (cf. Gothic wair, Old High German Wehr, and Old Norse verr). See also W.Gmc. werold (world), literally wer "man" + ald "age".

Other meanings might be ON Varg-/OE/OHG W(e)arg- (outlaw) and 'weri-' (to wear) meaning loosely "man wearing wolf skin". The Normans warped it into 'garulph' nad 'garwaf' which is Fr. garou (cf. Fr. loupgarou, Walloon leuwarou).

* Werawolf (OHG), Wërwolf (MHG), Werwolf (German)
* Vairavulfs (Gothic)


Check out The Werewolf in Lore and Legend by Montague Summers.

Ængelfolc Apr-12-2011

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@jayles: "Now here is an opportunity to include our real heritage!."

What does the "real heritage" part mean?

Ængelfolc Apr-12-2011

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@Stanmund: "I don't rightly get the full meaning of 'modifer' ..."

You would have to learn Latin or look up the Wordbook. It comes from L. modus ( + L. facere (Latin modificāre), and it literally means (in English)----> "to make, or set, a boundary, yoke, or bridle (something)".

The Icelandic word is "Einkunn" (determiner (lit. 'rating')), the Dutch "Bepalend woord" (lit. 'determining word'), German "Bestimmungswort" (also 'determining, or defining, word).

So, maybe 'wordmark' or 'name-chooser' or 'name-meaning-mark', or 'meaningmark'/ 'meaningchooser'...any thoughts?

Ængelfolc Apr-12-2011

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@jayles: "Teaching a Korean nun: almost my first words were: how much latin do you know?"

I think your words frame, and strengthen, the thoughts behind "Anglish"! Why should one have to learn English (or Greek) so that one can speak flawless, smart English?! How daft and crazy is that?!

"Who killed English?" They who think themselves smarter than we (the folks)! What is done must be undone.

Ængelfolc Apr-12-2011

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I meant..."Why should one have to learn Latin (or Greek)..."

Ængelfolc Apr-12-2011

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Ængelfolc: "real heritage" : I was teasingly referring to Celtic... I think we could allow them just one or two words borrowed into English..but let's not argue the birthright issue again, eh.
Now first you tell Stanmund to go learn latin so as to understand modifier and then you ask me why one should have to learn latin to understand english.... but seriously, if one is teaching english for academic purposes (EAP) any romance-speaker or latin-student is automatically about five to ten thousand words ahead of the rest of the world, way faster in reading and comprehension at least. Likewise german-speaking Swiss who have learnt french from an early age.
I have a suggestion for you to promote plain-speaking: would it be possible to go thru Wikipedia and change words like "inception" to "beginning". Just starting simply as the thin end of the wedge??

jayles Apr-12-2011

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Today's horror words that I had to explain off the cuff: "ethnographic" from Gk ethnos "nationality" and graphein "to write or draw". "neolithic" (Gk) new + lithos (stone)
paleo (gk) I guessed as meaning old. I guess students should learn Greek first too!

jayles Apr-12-2011

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@jayles:

I never told Stanmund to learn Latin...I wrote, "You would have to learn Latin..." to truly get the meaning. Also, I was bringing to light that it is beyond hare-brained to have to learn an outside tongue just to understand the mother-tongue of any given land. Yes, the Swiss do study French, English, asf., but not to be able to speak or understand Schwiizertüütsch, or even Hochdeutsch. This, I think, is one of the best "why's" for standing up for true English, and against needless, never-ending borrowing.

It is almost as if you are saying that English is solely at the behest of outsiders, and that their needs are first and foremost....and that is the way it is....How can this be?

If this is so, that is all the wherefore any English speaker needs to get behind Ænglisc.

The Latin-Roman, Gallo-Roman, and the rest of the World can keep on with Global-speak (it's not English), but let the English and those who wish it, to uphold true English. (my soapbox again)

Yes, I am with you about Gaulish/ Celtic words in English. I was dumbfounded to learn that only a few Celtic words live on in English.

Ængelfolc Apr-12-2011

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Ængelfolc: Oh dear, I must have baited you again! I am most penitent. (a nun-ish word)
"it is beyond hare-brained to have to learn an outside tongue just to understand the mother-tongue " : well put, and I absolutely agree.
Unfortunately of course, non-native speakers, need to learn "Global-speak" for international business and to study at university, as so many courses even in countries like Saudi Arabia are now run in English with textbooks in English.
If native speakers wished to do international business or academic study, they too would need to understand Global-speak. In this scenario Anglish would just be a hobby language for purists. Surely it would be better at least to attempt some albeit minor clean up of the worst borrowings? Indeed many business contracts now use "seller" instead of "vendor", it is just a matter of starting a fashion and the herd will follow.

jayles Apr-13-2011

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Ængelfolc: Possibly you are not yet fully aware of how global English is. I have seen companies in Eastern Europe where management speak french or dutch among themselves, the working language is English and the workers chat in their local language. Or an american company further east, working language english, people chatting in russian at work and some speaking the local language at home. Companies in English speaking countries, management language Korean, office language, nominally English, but signs in the toilets to "wash your hands" in eight languages. Go to Amsterdam: you won't hear much Dutch around the city centre. Go to London: English is just for business, so many people chatting in god-alone-knows-what. Real native-speakier English, like Danish, is becoming rarer even in its native countries.

jayles Apr-13-2011

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@ Ængelfolc:

Out of that lot, 'wordmark' or 'meaningmark' seem to come over better. Has they stand now, they look and feel way more wielder friendly than the Latinate. They could sweatlessly slip into informal grammar vocab. The Latinate grammar seems downright incomprehensible mumbojumbo weighed next to them.

Stanmund Apr-13-2011

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If it still works in meaning, maybe something like 'wordmark' should be reworded to 'markword' so it follows the existing wrought already on show in English, like: catchword, buzzword, foreword, loanword, crossword, headword, keyword, password, byword, cussword, misword, reword, swearword, watchword.

Stanmund Apr-13-2011

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@jayles

Maybe not for you but without shadow, the needless Latinate grammar in English holds back English speakers from learning foreign tungs. It so so dose, from my ken anyway.

Stanmund Apr-13-2011

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@jayles--- Thanks....I understand all too well about 'Global-Speak English' abroad. It is one of the things that has led me to my work on English. Today, Germany is having a fight in keeping "Anglizismen" (Global-Speak English) out, and forbid Deutsch from becoming 'Denglish'. It's right for Germans to watch over their birth-tongue, as it is right in the same way for the English and the Americans. IMHO.

You are right...clean-up and the withdraw of the worst borrowings would be a worthy errand. Let's start today!

Det være en trist dag, hvis det danske sprog forsvandt fra denne verden!

Ængelfolc Apr-13-2011

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I meant...and forestalling and forbiding Deutsch from becoming 'Denglish'.

Ængelfolc Apr-13-2011

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Also, I meant...Det ville være en trist dag, hvis det danske sprog forsvandt fra denne verden!

Rusty Danish!

Ængelfolc Apr-13-2011

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"...Anglish would just be a hobby language for purists." This does not have to come to pass. It doesn't have to be this way, if one takes a stand.

Ængelfolc Apr-13-2011

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Stanmund: Frankly the best way to learn a language is go there, live with a family or something (eg girlfriend), get your listening and pronunciation sorted and learn lots of vocabulary. Get whatever work you can to survive, but try to avoid using your own native tongue. I would also by the relevant "teach yourself" book which will explain whatever grammar you need. Japanese, chinese, are really hard as you will battle tonal meanings and the picture-script. But you will learn a lot and it will change your view of the world.

jayles Apr-13-2011

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Ængelfolc: I notice that Danish uses "will/would" like English instead of "werden/wuerden"
I know that OE still followed German for the passive but what is the story with will/would?
Secondly, how is it that the so-called past participle is active in meaning when combined with the auxiliary "have", and passive in meaning when used as an adjective? And what about intransive verbs like "swollen", "drunken", "grown-up", is there some mish-mash similar to what happened with the 'ing" form?
Thirdly somewhere I read that the continuous form is a Celtic transplant so perhaps there is bit more Celtic in English than a couple of words.

jayles Apr-14-2011

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Wow, jayles...going all academic on the Blog!!! I will handle each thing one by one, I am short on time right now.

Old English 'willan', P.Gmc. *wiljanan, *wiljo "want, wish, desire" asf. (cf. Gothic *wiljan, Old Norse vilja, Old Dutch *willen (Mod.Dutch willen)). It is an irregular verb.

ic wille (present)--> cf. Dutch ik will (present); Modern Eng. I will
ic wolde (indicative past)--> cf. Dutch ik wou (indicative); Modern Eng. I would
ic wolde (subjunctive past)--> cf. Dutch ik woude (subjunctive) Modern Eng. I would

Ængelfolc Apr-14-2011

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@Yagellsmund (sorry Jayles, been hankering to English-up your Frlike moniker)

Yep, go and live amongst the natives would work with most folk, but not the whole:

/relevant "teach yourself" book which will explain whatever grammar you need/

wouldn't help unless folk can be bothered to wade through a: "A-Z of Latinate grammar terms in English"

Stanmund Apr-14-2011

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Ængelfolc: re will/would: thanks, what really interests me is when and how "will/would" replaced the german werden for future and conditionals. Was it Danish influence or just the Normans failed to learn werden?
The other interesting thing about will/would is how on earth did it acquire the frequentative meaning like "used to " as in "As a child I would walk to school every day".

jayles Apr-14-2011

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Stanmund: sorry about the moniker: it was my mother's fault but she's dead now of course.
Teach yourself books are usually quite good at explaining things in simple terms, but you don't have to understand the grammar terminology to speak a language any more than you need it to speak english.

jayles Apr-14-2011

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Intransitive verbs are the only English verbs that can use their past participles as adjectives; 'swollen' and 'drunken' are Germanic verb past.parts, like eaten (O.E. geeten) and beaten (O.E. gebēaten), where the original was formed with the "ge-" prefix .

swollen (uninflected adj., past. part of swell) O.E. "genog". Compare Goth ganohs, ON gnogr, OSax genoh, genóg, O.Fris. enoch, Ger. genug, Dutch genoeg -> P.Gmc. *ganakh, *ganōgaz < *ga-(ge-) and *nakh, *nōgaz).


New Middle English Verb Form

Grown Up (early 16th c., past. part. 'grown' of 'grow' ,OE pp. gegrōwen, + 'up') This is form comes from the new type of verb form (two-part or separable verbal expression, use of adverbial particles) brought about at the on-set of Middle English . This verb-type replaced the use of Old English prefixes like "ge-".

English uses has or have with a past participle to describe an action that started in the past and is (or may be) still going on.

"I worked here for two years." (implies no longer working, focused on the past action)/ "I have worked here for two years." (implies still working, focuses on "I", the doer, because of have)

"I had this before". (did have)/ "I have had this before." (having it again)

The 'continuous verb form' (or progressive aspect if one likes) is found in many tongues (Dutch, Welsh, Icelandic, etc), and is widely taken as 'locative'. Only about 4% of all American English, and 3% of British English, sentences contain the progressive (continuous) form today.

"He was a-working" was one way to make the "progressive", but has since fallen out of favor for the form "He is working." (i.e. in the process of).

There is a synchronic, but no diachronic, debate about its the form's origin in English. A guy named Lockwood hypothesized that the progressive form in English was a calque from Celtic, but it has yet to been borne out as true.

OE, among all of the other early Germanic tongues, had the most developed progressive system. Old English use '-ende' (today, '-ing') to make the 'progressive', usually in translations from Latin.

I believe, based on what I have read, that O.E. had the progressive form. It was not used as much as it is today. It isn't unlikely, though, that neighboring Celtic languages may have had an influence, but I currently don't think, based on the evidence, that Old English borrowed this verb form from any Celtic tongue. Here is a good paper on the subject: http://icame.uib.no/ij18/elsness.pdf

Ængelfolc Apr-14-2011

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@jayles: I see. Abridged....

For the record, 'will/would' is Germanic. German 'werden' is the same as English 'worth' (from O.E. weorðan)---"woe worth the man/day"...asf. Both verbs are from P.Gmc. *werþanan (cf. Gothic wairþan, Old Norse verða, Swedish Varda).

The future in Dutch (zullen (shall, should)) "Het zal niet werken"; in Danish (skulle (shall,should, must) "det skal nok gå bra"; Icelandic (skulu) "Þú skalt sjá!". All Germanic languages (including Gothic) make the future tense with auxiliary verbs.

I digress....

Two things happened to influence the popularity of 'werden': 1. Latin was being replaced as the preferred written tongue and 2) German writers wanted to precisely express tense and voice in German. The verb 'wollen' was used a lot for the future action up until about 1700.

The use of 'werden' as THE future auxiliary happened in Middle High German. The construction WERDEN + infinitve happened around 1800. In Old High German, 'werden' was used mainly for the beginning of an action, state, or happening. In Old High German, 'sollen' (shall), 'wollen' (will, want, desire), and 'müssen' (must, need to, have to) WERE used to express happenings in the future.

In modern German (especially in the South), we do like to use the form: "Ich würde lieber warten" (I would rather wait), "Da würde ich nicht drauf wetten" (I wouldn't bet on it). The words 'would' and 'würde' can have the same usage.

You might like reading a more in depth treatment of this subject. I recommend, 'Modals in the Languages of Europe: A Reference Work' by Björn Hansen, Ferdinand de Haan, and "Die werden-Perspektive und die werden-Periphrasen im Deutschen: Historische Entwicklung und Funktionen in der Gegenwartssprache" by Michail L Kotin.

Now, why 'will' in English and not "werden"? It goes back to...tadaaaa! ACADEMIA and the Church. Old English did not have a separate future tense--- present and future were grammatically one. The reason shall and will became auxiliaries to mean the future came about in the fourteenth century as schools were having their students translate the Latin Bible (due to John Wycliffe's sway). Schools to taught students to use 'will' to translate Latin volo, velle; 'shall' has no Latin equivalent, so it was used arbitrarily for the Latin future tense. And, that is the abridged version of why 'will' is used in English instead of 'werden'.

Viel Spaß!

Ængelfolc Apr-14-2011

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@jayles: "...will/would is how on earth did it acquire the frequentative meaning like "used to..."

Well, Academia was at it again...messing up the English tongue! The 17th English rules were really (really) bad for 'will' and 'shall', and even worse for 'would' and 'should'. 'Would' and 'Should' are very flexible indeed! There are no hard and fast rules for them.

For the benefit of all: a frequentative word is a word that marks repeated action.

One of the many varied, unregulated uses of 'would' is to mark habitual action. Don't forget "would" can also behave as the past tense of 'will'. The blending of these two ideas allows a sentence like, "As a child I would walk to school every day" to be written and spoken in English.

Ængelfolc Apr-14-2011

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More about "progressive form" and Cletic: "...neighboring Celtic languages may have had an influence..."

What I mean here is that the I think it is likely that the frequency of the continuous verb form in English was influenced by neighboring Celtic tongues, not the grammar structure itself.

Ich wollte nur meinen Standpunkt verdeutlichen. Danke!

Ængelfolc Apr-14-2011

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Is there any toponymist in yous two? what would you guess to the meaning of '-loss' found in English placenames?

Endloss, Hertfordshire

and

Ingloss, Norfolk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lost_settlements_in_the_United_Kingdom

Sorry to do it this way, but could 'endloss' work as an Anglish word for some Romance rooted one? In what ways could 'endloss' mean anything? Could an 'endloss' be the result of an 'endgame' ?

German 'endlosschleife' is meaning: /infinitive loop/ or /endless loop/
/endless slip/(?)

Stanmund Apr-14-2011

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what could the root of '-loss' mean? is it a rare spinoff on...

loos
lees
leys
leighs
laws
less(!)
lows

Stanmund Apr-14-2011

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'loos' (as in: Waterloo, Flanders nowadays Wallonia):

Stanmund Apr-14-2011

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Nowadays English = /ing/

Old English = /ende/

so mighten the placename

/Ingloss/

be the modern wroughting of

/Endloss/

?

Stanmund Apr-14-2011

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@Stanmund:

The names could be put together with 'end' + 'loss'.

End: O.E. ende (area, end, bordermark, share of a town, the froward side). It lives on in names like "Boyden-End" in Suffolk, England, and "East End of London", "West End of London".

Loss: O.E. los (to die, destruction, to be lost). Modern 'loss' came from 'lost' (O.E. lēosan). This meaning is in today's word forlorn ( O.E. forlēosan).

or

Less: O.E. lǣs, lēas (free from, without, lacking, bare, not lived on; also small, younger). Compare 'lawless', 'bottomless', 'careless', asf.

End and Ing are not alike. Compare 'Ingthorpe' in Rutland (lmaybe 'Ing's Village'). "Ing" likely means Ing ( Yngvi-Freyr) or the Ingaevones (Folks of Ing, Ynglingas).

Ing wæs ærest mid Est-Denum
Gesewen secgum, oþ he siððan est
Ofer wæg gewat; wæn æfter ran;
Þus heardingas þone hæle nemdun.

* from George Hicks, The Old English Rune Poem, 1705 (from an 8/9 c. writing).

Ængelfolc Apr-15-2011

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@Stanmund:

The "loo' in Waterloo is from Middle Dutch lo(o) "forest, thicket, woods, meadow", from Proto-Germanic *lauhō (“meadow”). Cf. O.E lēah (lea, leigh, ley, ly) "forest clearing", Old Saxon lōh "forest, grove", Old High German lōh "covered clearing, low bushes", Old Norse lō "clearing, meadow".

It is not related loss or less. Loos is the plural of loo (Old Dutch *lōs).

Ængelfolc Apr-15-2011

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Hi Ængelfolc, I might of missed it, but what is the meaning of the -loss in the English placenames of 'Endloss' and 'Ingloss' or are you saying the 'loss' bits could be personal names?

The Wiki page of UK placenames is utterly lacking in a lot of placename bits http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_generic_forms_in_place_names_in_the_United_Kingdom_and_Ireland

I knew the 'loo' in Waterloo was Dutch for leigh, ley etc, I wandered if '-loo' was another way for -loss? Funny how "endz" (areas) like Waterloo are somehow officially in Wallonia! Only last summer, I brought some wonderdom and a smile to a sweet Flemish service station worker when I explained to her what I meant by asking 'where the loo (toilet) was'

I hadn't ever picked up that the 'End' in places like West End, Mile End, Crouch End etc, mean 'area' 'share' 'portion' - indeed it fits in to the latest generation of London youth's use of 'endz' when talking of their area/neighbourhood, so 'end' to mean 'area' is attested in use by millions. And come to think of it, isn't American Football's END Zone kinda akin to English Association Football's Penalty AREA. To take a saying from football...end to end (exciting) stuff.

Possible Anglish: endtoendered/endendered = excited, excitable (from end to end and influenced by engendered)?

Stanmund Apr-16-2011

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It's far fetched, but maybe the loss in Endloss and Ingloss mean 'waste' so Endloss = 'waste area' Ingloss = Inga's waste?

Coastal erosion in Suffolk = shoreloss in Suffolk

Weathering works in describing land loss and weathered/weatherbeaten in describing surfaces but dose it work in describing a eroded metal bits etc?

Stanmund Apr-16-2011

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@Stanmund:

I do not think that "Endloss" and "Ingloss" come from personal names. I think it more likely that "Endloss" means something akin to "an area not lived on" or maybe "a destructed area" (maybe the village was found after a war?). If "-less" is meant, then it might mean "land that goes on forever (as far as the eye can see)".

In the same way, "Ingloss" could mean "an area without Ing (either Ing cant reach it, or Ing forsook it), or it might mean "an area laid to waste (destroyed) by Ing).

The full name that was in the link was "Endloss-Ditton". "Ditton" (also Dixton) is the Anglo-Saxon word 'dyketon' (O.E. dīctūn, dike/ditch farm,settlement,village) (settlement on the dike or ditch, ditch/dike settlement), in other words, 'towns enclosed by a dike'. See Fen Ditton (Wetland by the/a Ditch/Dike) and Wood Ditton (Woods by the Ditch/Dike) in Cambridgeshire.

I don't think the meanings are any deeper than this. Do you have any writings about Endloss Ditton, other than the Wikipedia link?

Ængelfolc Apr-16-2011

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@Stanmund: NEW

The surname seems to be from Ingloss Manor near Loddon. The manor of Abby was held by a family with the surname Inglose/ Ingloss. They were from Loddon Inglose (Ingloss), Norfolk. They were knights.

It seems this surname has been spelled 'de Ingelose' (late 12th c), Ingelose (c.1275), Inggelose (abt. 1346), Ingloss, Inglose, Inglosse, Inglos, even Englisse and Inglish. There was a coat-of-arms which was a silver Blazon, a bend between two cotisses (bendlets), and a sable. Further, it had "Gu. three bars gemmels or, on a canton ar. five billets".

See "Encyclopædia of heraldry: or General armory of England, Scotland, and Ireland"
by John Burke, Sir John Bernard Burke for more info.

Ængelfolc Apr-16-2011

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Good stuff Ængelfolc.

I'm reckoning even with the Englisse, Inglish spellings of Ingloss and their akinness to surnames like Lawless http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawless and Inglis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inglis, that Ingloss (like Endloss) means 'waste area' rather than 'English'

My WILD hunch, is that Ingloss (Norfolk) came under Danelaw, hence 'ing' for 'end', whilst Endloss (Hertfordshire) didn't, and kept it's English spelling for End. Anyway, you spoke something about the 'ing' in nowadays English being 'ende' in old English. For me -loss indeed seems to go towards 'waste'

It still could be from Ley, Lee(?) Lea, Ley, Leigh when thinking of names like End(s)leigh. To make a clearing (ley/leigh), you need to first lay waste (loss) to an end (area).

'Anglo' (Angloss) maybe Latin scribes where influenced by the idea of the 'English waste' of Briton lands?

Stanmund Apr-16-2011

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By the way Ængelfolc, got nothing other on Endloss Ditton nor Ingloss, just happened upon them on wiki whilst googling for lost villages/towns in the UK. They stood out amongst the list for me, never happened upon -loss in placenames before.

Stanmund Apr-16-2011

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@Stanmund:

"Ing", I do not think, is the same as "end". The earliest writing of the surname "Ingelose" (Inge+lose), (Ingel-ose), or (Ing +gelose) doesn't bear that out at all. Cf. the name Ingelhouse/ Inglehouse which is also from Ing(e)loss. 'oss(e) might've been some mispoken form of house (no 'h'). So, Ingeloss (Ingle's/ Ingel's House).

The Old Norse for 'end' (O.E. ende) is 'endir'. So, the Norse (Danes, Norwegians) and the Anglo-Saxons said the word the same way.

I believe 'Ing' is truly Ing (Yngvi, Ingwine), meaning the Germanic god. Ingui(n)-Frēa is O.E. for Yngvi-Freyr, so the way they would have said Ing is the same, too.

Don't forget the Anglo-Saxon Rune Poems first line:

"Ing wæs ærest mid Est-Denum gesewan secgum..." (loosely-Ing was first among the East Danes seen by (English)men).

Even though, Ing being among the Anglo-Saxon pantheon is still in question, the fact that Norfolk was in the Danelaw allows for the thought of Ing in Ænglisc.

Ængelfolc Apr-16-2011

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@Stanmund:

Another thought......speaking of the Danelaw and Scandinavian sway, maybe the name Ing(e)los(s)(e) is 'ing(e)l + os(s)', where 'Ingel/Ingle/Ingl means "Tribute to Ing" (O.N. Ingialdr) + O.E. os (O.N. áss) meaning 'god, divine, deity'.

So, loosely, "A tribute to the Germanic god Ing".

Ængelfolc Apr-16-2011

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Ængelfolc: "Intransitive verbs are the only English verbs that can use their past participles as adjectives" ; a bit too all-embracing, I think. "The swept volume", "The preferred choice", "The man chosen for the task"; these are all examples where the "past participle" of transitive verbs are used as adjectives, which are PASSIVE in meaning. The number of intransitive verbs with the pp.used as an adjective is quite small. This is oddity which I was wondering about - the past participle seems to vary in meaning depending on whether used with "have" to from a perfect tense, or used with "be" to form a passive, or as an adjective. Not logical!.
Re will/ would: thanks for the info; modals are quite a difficult area to teach as they have so many diverse, oddball, and overlapping meanings. Romance language speakers are still usually taught at school to use "will" for the future even today. This leads to unidiomatic sentences like "What will you do over Easter?" when they really are asking about your plans. Even when I was at school, we were taught to use shall/should for the first person and will/would for second and third. Quite why escapes me even now. I wish we could go back to the simplicity of will/soll/kann/mag/muss.
BTW the continuous forms ending in "ing" are actually a tribute to a Germanic god.
It is odd how "Academia" is to blame for everything.. or would it more accurately be the church?

jayles Apr-16-2011

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@jayles:

As I wrote before, English language rules are bad! They aren't rules really at all, more like guidelines or suggestions. So, yes, my statement was to all-encompassing, rigid if you will, ...a mistake.

Remember, verbs in English can shift their valency around. Intransitives can gain an object, transitives can drop on object. Then, there are ambitransitives, too! It's all part of the fun!

I just learned to roll with it: have + pp (perfect), be + pp (passive)

Academia strikes again....! The church and academia were in league with each other at one time, so I guess they share the blame equally.

"BTW the continuous forms ending in "ing" are actually a tribute to a Germanic god." LOL....powerful gerunds in English we have!

Ængelfolc Apr-17-2011

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@Ængelfolc

"Ing", I do not think, is the same as "end". The earliest writing of the surname "Ingelose" (Inge+lose), (Ingel-ose), or (Ing +gelose) doesn't bear that out at all. Cf. the name Ingelhouse/ Inglehouse which is also from Ing(e)loss. 'oss(e) might've been some mispoken form of house (no 'h'). So, Ingeloss (Ingle's/ Ingel's House).


Utterly forgot: grass root of any etymology/toponymy - go back and find it's earliest shape. Ingloss(Ingelose) meaning 'Ingle+house' is way more likely to mean 'house' than oss/ose/os etc proposed for some SW French placenames by this website: http://www.vikinginfrance.com/germanic-toponymy.html

Makes me wonder why the French weirdly spell their word for Scotland 'Ecosse' Ecosse - Ecotte, osse/otte = house/cottage/cote/hutt? Ger. Schottland Scothuttland? Ingloss: Inglott/Inglot, Ing's lot of land. Ingel's/Englander's lot of land. You never know.

Stanmund Apr-17-2011

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@Stanmund:

I am with about "Ingelose/Ingloss (Ing's/ Ingle's House).

Scotland in French (L'Écosse) is a French misshaping of the Latin Scotia. French borrowings normally have an e-vowel before 'sp-, st-, and sc- in order to make it easier to say in French: espier from Frankish *spehon, eschew from Frankish *skiuhan, esquire from VL scutarius, escalade from It, scalata, escalope from ON skalpr, escarpe ultimately from Goth. *skrapa through Italian, asf. In French, final 'a' is many times replaced by a final 'e', too.

In this case, "-osse" doesn't mean 'house".

Ængelfolc Apr-18-2011

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Thanks Ængelfolc, I already knew about the French trend for adding an 'e' before words beginning sp- and other s- beginnings. I was more wondered by the bow (-osse) in Ecosse than the stern, especially with that French websites talking up Aquitaine placenames with -osse/os and other sundries of '-osse' to mean 'house'

Stanmund Apr-18-2011

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@Stanmund:

The '-osse' in Écosse is not a breakable end-word. It is from SCOTIA > E (s) co ss(t) e (ia) > Écosse. Cf. Nova Scotia, Canade (said no-veh skoshia/skosia).

As for '-osse' standing for house with a French ‹h› muet, well English 'house' would be pronounced 'ows'; Scandinavian 'hus' would be said 'oos/os'. Most French 'h' words are said this way (as you may know).

Ængelfolc Apr-18-2011

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@Stanmund: BTW....there is a 'Thierri d'Ingelhuse' listed in old ecclesiastical works.

Ængelfolc Apr-18-2011

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@Stanmund:

I suggested that in my earlier post: "'Ingel/Ingle/Ingl means "Tribute to Ing" (O.N. Ingialdr)". I used an "i" instead of a "j" for Ingjaldr. So, are you saying that Ingloss means "Ingjaldr's House"?

Do you think (from your link) that Ingloss is the Swabian dialectical of eingelassen (ingloss')?

Ingloss (maybe really Golosa)? See here http://books.google.com/books?id=TP8HAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA303&dq=Ingloss,+Loddon,+Norfolk,+England&hl=en&ei=2TStTYuuO4fKgQfXvdz7Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=inglose&f=false

Golosa in Italian means 'greedy', but with little 'g', golosa 'delicious'; in Spanish it means 'a gourmand, glutton, one who over indulges with food", also used to describe someone with a "sweet tooth" (one who like confections, chocolate, sugar). Not sure what it could mean in Anglo-Saxon, if anything.

Ængelfolc Apr-19-2011

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@Ængelfolc

No to both, I think I have gone a bit wild with it all.

Stanmund Apr-19-2011

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Now, back to Ænglisc! Some words that I think should stay in English, even though they come from outside the Germanic tongues:

* Castle: This building was brought to England with the Normans. The English "Burg(h)" was unlike the Castle in form and function.

* Car (maybe from Gaulish karros): It has been in use in the World by all folks since the 5th millenium BC.

* Street (Latin strata): The word originally only meant 'Roman paved roads' in England. They have been a part of England since about 43 AD. The Anglo-Saxons borrowed the word because they had no word for "paved street".

* Lake: Many have tracked this word to L. lacus, but English lake truly comes from OE lacu (P.Gmc *lakō, *lakiz ). A.Gk lákkos and L. lacus share the IE root *lakw- (“lake, pool”) with OE lagu (sea, ocean).

* Coffee (Arabic qahwa): Coffee was drink unknown to Germanic folks until it was brought to Europe from the Ottoman Empire, although coffee has its beginning further East. The first Western European to write about it in 1573 was German physician and botanist Leonhard Rauwolf.

* Sugar (Sanskrit śárkarā): The "sweet salt" was brought to Europe by the Crusaders going back home.

* X-Rays: discovered by Wilhelm Conrad Röntgen (1895). He called them X-Strahlen, but in German they are also called 'Röntgenstrahlen'. It has even become common to say, "Ich bin beim Röntgen." (I'm being x-rayed.).

Who votes for replacing 'juice' (from L. jūs)with the original 'sap' (OE sæp-which is the same as German 'saft')? Or, OE wōs (mod.Eng. 'ooze')?

Who has other words they'd keep? Why?

Ængelfolc Apr-19-2011

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@Ængelfolc: Anglish as i understand it is a language for "purists". This is fundamentally an emotional decision about who you are - or Anglo-Saxon or Norman-french or Celtic descent - what your heritage is....
... more later...

jayles Apr-19-2011

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Kitchen, kiln, kitch, -lock (suffix), toll, etc, a lot of the more older and Germanic looking borrowings can stay. Having said that, the shortening 'kitch' can stay but not the misspelled Deutsch looking 'kitsch' Never been keen on 'castle' don't dig the look of 'schloss' either.

Sap should come to overset 'juice' I could see the organic/homemade food makers/sellers marketing their goods as sap over juice. Juice can come with negegative conotations - additives, garishness, cheap and over processed. Juice doesn't come over as homely a word as 'sap' Apple sap gives off a bigger feeling of 'goodness' and natrualness than apple juice.

How oft is it for German words to be wrought from folk's names has in 'Rontgenstrahlen'? Couldn't a whole heap of English Latinate words be ednewly branded after their inventors etc so we end up with more words like 'watt'

Stanmund Apr-19-2011

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Sapen loss from kegs did bleed now only dribbled tears suckle (service) mouths left in thirst.

Bytheway, hate the words 'quay' and 'Port' and 'bay' 'valley' (even though 'vallen' in Scand.) and 'acre' should be spelled 'aker'

Port crops up in too many places needlessly. Port crushes foresight - too many English 'new towns' over the years crafted or overset as 'Newport' and again in the new towns of Southport and the oversetting of Ellenfoot into Maryport. The new town of Newhaven is a thoughtful exception to the above Victorian portist vandalism. And the port in Stockport, Portsmouth and Gosport are not even from port! To many docks regenerated and then renamed quay. Surrey Docks now Surrey Quays.

Note, a lot of head/headlands along England's southern shores have been renamed 'point' Victorians again I think. Sigh.

Hope Anglish moot knock out some kind of map minus the needless latinisms within maps.

Stanmund Apr-19-2011

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jayles: Anglish as i understand it is a language for "purists". This is fundamentally an emotional decision about who you are - or Anglo-Saxon or Norman-french or Celtic descent - what your heritage is....
... more later...

@jayles

Why do you write "Norman-french" why not just "Norman"?

The Normans spoke French patoise but they were never French back then.

Stanmund Apr-19-2011

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@Stanmund:

"Kitsch" is a German word borrowed into English in the mid 1920's, so why should it be Anglified? It is spelled the same even in French and Italian.

"Kitch" was an shortening of kitchen. It won't do. If one were to Anglify it, it would be 'kitsh' to follow the way it is said.

I am with you on 'port'. English has great words to mean port: harbor, haven, wharf, dockyard, boatyard, and others. 'Quay" is one of the few Celtic words in English. Are you sure you would throw it out? "Bay" is from Iberian. There are even less of these words than Celtic. You'd sure make Dr. Oppenheimer and Brian Sykes most sad getting rid of this word! HAHAHA!

Acre must be spelled right. Yes!

What is Old Norse 'vallen'? Valley and related vale are straight-up Latin. The Old Norse word for valley, from what I know, was 'dalr', from the same word as English 'dale' and German 'Tal'. In Swedish 'vallen' is a plural for 'embankment'.

What is wrong with Schloß? It is kin to English slot (to lock with a bolt), and Danish Slot 'castle'. It's a great West Germanic word. The words mean the same thing, but are used differently.

What about fortress?

"Castle" is the name of something not like an English Burg(h). Should we stop using the word sushi, and just call it "Japanese Raw Fish'?

Ængelfolc Apr-19-2011

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Stanmund: yes I meant Anglo-normans or whatever you call William's mates and offspring.

jayles Apr-19-2011

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To continue with the issues:
1) Target market: who is Anglish for? Not for the globish, nor for the Welsh, nor for the Scots, nor for the Fitzwilliams, de Mounceys, Maundervilles, Abbots and Sextons and the like. Nor for those with red haired forefathers who descend from Celts. Nor for any of the latest immigrants to England or the USA. No, it is just for the Godwins and those whose ancestry is unsullied with not a drop of non-Germanic blood. Hmm might not be too many of those who are truly English too. Most people would think Anglish is barmy... you have to be a sort of linguistic person to appreciate it. So is it for the common herd??
2) Channel: No point in producing a product if you can't get it to the target market. How is this to be done? Yes it was done with Hebrew in Israel, but that means teaching it in schools, and one would need a hard groundswell of public backing to achieve that.
3) Premise: Anglish is built on the premise that it is easier to understand. It ain't necessarily so. "Forechoose" or "forecarry" is no more intelligible than "prefer" and definitely more unfamiliar. I have just watched a trainee English teacher flounder to explain the word "defeat", (even though "feat" was on the same page!) "Overcome" , although more English, does not make it easier, as the students didn't know that word either.
4) Downside: with English the mongrel as it is, native speakers can easily learn most non slav European languages.
5) Intelligibility: I have alway supposed that the purpose of language is to communicate with someone. Ever time I see Anglishers using brackets and global English to explicate what they mean, it proves that Anglish is partly ununderstandable to the common man. That's just not good enough.
6) Solutions: I am quite happy to use forestall instead of prevent, but flounder to find something for "overgeneralize" - I just got allembracing, (or all encompassing). People really don't have the time to checkout Old English or frankish when they just want to exprime an opinion. However "overgeneralize" has plainly become English with an English prefix, so why trhrow it out because general is latinate? I checked the Moot and all they suggest is some unintelligible OE word that no normal person would ken.
So no point in using that! No we need a set of criteria that would Anglicize English as far as possible without compromising intelligibility, and acceptibility to the world at large. That would mean I think accepting quite a number of Norman words like "point" which are used in phrasal verbs, like point out, outpoint, and have become totally anglicized. On the other hand we would need in schools to encourage the use of forestall instead of prevent. But it would be hard work to change "submit" and "Notify me when new comment is posted" as there is so much french in business speak.

jayles Apr-19-2011

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finally a recent report in England stated that William's mates and offspring were still ten percent better off on average than Saxons.

jayles Apr-19-2011

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And finally finally while we all squabble over the language, the chinese, saudis, japanese, or someone are busy buying up the countryside, and cities, and former Viking settlements like Ingloss.

jayles Apr-19-2011

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@jayles:

The reports meaning is not the same as what you put forth. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1372919/Social-mobility-slower-medieval-England.html

"Surnames which indicated nobility and wealth in medieval times are still richer even today, research has suggested." This is the whole meaning...not Norman wealth weighed against Saxon wealth.

"...those with 'rich' surnames left estates worth at least 10 per cent above the national average, and also lived three years longer than the average..."

Take heed, it did not say Norman or French surnames. Nor does it say "above folks of Saxon blood". They did give a few Norman surnames (Darcy, Percy, & Baskerville) as examples, but so what?

BASKERVILLE (Norman Boscherville) is a Frankish-Latin mishmash. Fr. boschet (dim. of Bois, Bosc > VL boscus > Frankish *bosk, meaning small bush) + ville (L. villa, meaning settlement, town).

Everything is "suggested", but not borne out, much less the truth. It's rubbish.

Ængelfolc Apr-19-2011

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"...while we all squabble over the language, the chinese, saudis, japanese, or someone are busy buying up the countryside, and cities, and former Viking settlements..."

I have one thing to write: Der Träger der Kultur sei die Sprache.

Thought stirring reading (link in German only): Das Schrifttum als geistiger Raum der Nation by Hugo von Hofmannsthal

http://www.zeno.org/Literatur/M/Hofmannsthal,+Hugo+von/Essays,+Reden,+Vortr%C3%A4ge/Das+Schrifttum+als+geistiger+Raum+der+Nation

One can learn a great deal about a people from the state of their language. Language is not so trivial a thing at all. If a peoples language becomes extinct, so does their culture, and often, so do they.

Ængelfolc Apr-19-2011

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Ængelfolc: I must be halfway extinct then: at my local shopping mall they still speak english at the bank, postoffice, and one of the three supermarkets. Throughout rest of the mall - and this in a country where the official language is still english - the signs and labels are only in Chinese, korean, maybe japanese, vietnamese. Same if you take a bus, buy real estate, in the local library, the churches. The changeover took less than ten years.

jayles Apr-20-2011

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Ængelfolc: Thanks for correcting the report on weath and names. The following seems odd:
'Such names indicated a descent from Anglo-Saxon nobility, who came to England after the Norman Conquest and are found in the Domesday book of 1086."
Surely the "Anglosaxon nobility" were already in England BEFORE the conquest?

jayles Apr-20-2011

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Ængelfolc: /Kitsch" is a German word borrowed into English in the mid 1920's, so why should it be Anglified? It is spelled the same even in French and Italian/

/Kitch" was an shortening of kitchen. It won't do. If one were to Anglify it, it would be 'kitsh' to follow the way it is said/


I led myself up the garden path and fluffed up owing to 'kitch' and 'kitsch' being mentioned in the same breath: My bad again: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=kitsch&searchmode=none

Ængelfolc: /what is Old Norse 'vallen'? Valley and related vale are straight-up Latin. The Old Norse word for valley, from what I know, was 'dalr', from the same word as English 'dale' and German 'Tal'. In Swedish 'vallen' is a plural for 'embankment/


I mistook Nordic 'vallen' placenames to be cognate to 'valley' and 'vale' And that like in the UK, 'vallen' (valley/vale) lives (mostly orally) alongside 'dale' Might of got the wall(s)/walled embankment meaning in 'vallen' if 'vallen' had been spelt '(w)allen' and English 'wall' had kept its meaning of 'embankment' more strongly.


Ængelfolc: /What is wrong with Schloß? It is kin to English slot (to lock with a bolt), and Danish Slot 'castle'. It's a great West Germanic word. The words mean the same thing, but are used differently/


Guess I couldn't ever get my head around the fact that there seemed to be no English kithborne cognate to the German word for castle 'Schloss' but now I have been made aware it's the English word 'slot', I take back my grumblings. Indeed, 'slot' to mean 'castle' as an everyday word in English is not impossible. Consider the tradition in the UK of landed lords building 'follies' mainly suggesting castles and towers in looks, and oft for no other use other than decoration. Why couldn't someone like an artist or the Anglish moot get lottery funding to celebrate St Georges day and get a rich land owner to commission a newbuild castle folly at the bottom of their estate.


In other words:

If I was awash with sterlings (that word can stay) and lots of land (to mark St Edmund, Cuthbert and Aldhelm's day FOR EVERYONE through English history and architecture) I would give backing to a 'follylike' newbuild castle with modernist streaks. The heading of the project would be: 'Standmund's Slot' to mean: (Standmund's Castle). The folly's doors would hint at the Castle's name by being crafted with emphasis on the door's 'slots, bolts and locks' This would give some meaning to folk that 'slot' means 'castle' in the Stanmund Slot name. 'Slot' would hitch onto words like: 'lock up' in meaning a building (prison, garage). I would also build a clump of worker's dwellings which would latter be set into a selfstanding village called: Stanmundslot which the Ordinance Survey would have to mark on their maps. Hopefully the trend spreads and the meaning of 'slot' to mean 'castle' spreads, maybe start a building firm speciallising in building 'Slot follies' up and down the land for the wealthy.

Stanmund Apr-20-2011

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@jayles: ""Such names indicated a descent from Anglo-Saxon nobility, who came to England after the Norman Conquest and are found in the Domesday book of 1086."
Surely the "Anglosaxon nobility" were already in England BEFORE the conquest?"

Yes, the first Anglosaxon nobility was in England before 1066. The above is merely saying that the names (Darcy, Percy, Baskerville, and others) came from Normandy. The fact that the writer used "Anglosaxon nobility" is not 100% right, but to me it'll do. Anglo-Norman nobility would have been more right.

Most of the "Anglosaxon" noble class was "Anglo-Norman" by 1086. The truth is borne out in the Domesday Book showing only 8% of English lands were owned by Anglosaxon Thegns with Anglosaxon names. Some of the Thegns may have taken Norman names to fit in. The Domesday book also shows that Duke William owned 20% of English land, the Church owned 25%, and the greatest followers of Duke William (all were not Norman btw) owned almost 50%.

Those that got a "lion's share" (25% of English lands) were: Bishop Odo de Bayeux (he was also the earl of Kent!), Count Robert de Mortain (1/2 brother of Duke WIlliam- they had the same mother), William fitz Osbern (he was over the Flemish division of William's army), Roger of Montgomery, William de Warenne (grandnephew of Gunnor and Duke Richard I or Normandy), Bishop Geoffery de Coutances, and Geoffery de Mandeville.

The Thegns that lived after 1066 had it rough. Most of them fled to Flanders, North to Scotland, or went East to become Varangian bodyguards

So, is it any wonder that folks with an Anglo-Norman name may have had family behaviors passed on to them to help them succeed, even into today? Look at the "wealth families" of the World. They keep their riches by teaching their children the family ways to forever grow and keep that wealth.

Ængelfolc Apr-20-2011

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Forgot, along with 'lock up' 'bolt hole' also means some kinda 'building' See! 'slot' to mean 'castle' 'fortified place' 'country retreat' is hidden within lots of existing words for buildings already.

jayles there are many ways to target and market to folk out there. Follies are full of mirth and playfulness, why not a rural local council commission some kind of modern water tower or insinarator made to look like a castle, and name it 'Slot Bolt Hole' Why not? there is a 'castle Howard', why not the likes of 'Slot Bolt Hole' or a new incinarator playfully named 'Burnover Slot'. Even the likes of: 'Burnslot Castle' or 'Burnslot Incinerator' would start associating 'slot' with 'castle'

Making council and business buildingstock into landmarks can't do any harm. Maybe English Heritage could help by making a law that any new castlelike folly has to have the word 'slot' in it, to distinguish it from 'traditional' historic castles, so has not to act as competitor nor mislead tourists and piss off existing castle landmarks within the tourist industry.

Stanmund Apr-20-2011

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*there are many ways to target and market Anglish to folk out there*

Stanmund Apr-20-2011

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@Stanmund:

"Sterling" is most likely from 'steorra' + '-ling > steroling > sterling meaning "small, little star. Some early Norman coins bore a star.

The Old French 'esterlin' is found in a charter of the abbey of Les Préaux (1084-1104 AD). The OFr word is 'esterlin' is from a Germanic source: Initial French 'e'+ste(o)rlin-(g) or maybe from 'Easterlings' (some etymologists do not like this, though, because it does not neatly and comfortable follow English word development). I can't rule it out, however, since the "Easterlings" (from Northern Germany, were the first-ever moneyers in England.

Anyway, it's a West Germanic word....indeed it can stay!

Ængelfolc Apr-20-2011

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sandlot
sublot
underplot
wastelot
woodlot
outplot
overplot
dryplot

Along with 'lock up' and 'bolt hole' all these existing words for places also make it a lot eathier for 'slot' (meaning castle) to blend in. Thanks More Words. http://www.morewords.com/ends-with/lot/

Stanmund Apr-20-2011

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@Ængelfolc "Sterling" is most likely from 'steorra' + '-ling > steroling > sterling meaning "small, little star. Some early Norman coins bore a star.

It was good enough already but that makes me feel even better.

Nothing seems wrong, just Interesting that your explanations for the roots of 'sterling' and 'vallen' was made without using obvious contemporary words like '(star)ling' (-ling suffix) nor 'wall' (walled embankment)

Stanmund Apr-20-2011

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@Stanmund: "...just Interesting that your explanations for the roots of 'sterling' and 'vallen' was made without using obvious contemporary words..."

Can you tell me more about what you mean? Why do you find it so striking? It is my belief that the root-word must be shown to see the truth of it.

Ængelfolc Apr-20-2011

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