“Anglish”

Ængelfolc: "Although" can only be used as a conjunction (like "obschon", "obgleich". One cannot comma it off like "However". ("Obgleich, Sie Recht haben" would be wrong in German too). "Though" is the same as "although", but it can ALSO be used as an adverb (after a comma) at the end of a sentence, meaning roughly "allerdings" or "trotzdem". It's a bit informal.
"Dennoch" translates as "nonetheless"; but in English that's an awful mouthful!
"You are right, however" is good, though.
These little words indicating attitude I find really difficu

@jayles: Thanks! "Obgleich, Sie Recht haben" >> yes, very awful!

""Dennoch" can mean 'nonetheless', 'however', "all the same", "yet" among others, and "aber dennoch" means "even so". It is quite a handy adverb to know.

"Although I made a fragmented sentence, my meaning was understood."

Verbindlichsten Dank, Herr Lehrer.;-p

"Sir Thomas Elyot... was responsible for many Latin and Greek borrowings, like 'animate', 'education', 'encyclopedia', 'frugality', 'metamorphosis', 'modesty', 'obfuscate', and 'persist'. All these words occur in The Governor..."--Early modern English (1997)
By Charles Laurence Barber

What we hold true today, about Latin words, was true back then: meanings of Latin and Greek words are not obvious to readers who do not know Latin and/or Greek.

How did Sir Elyot get around this? He use English to explain the meaning of the new word. For example, he wrote things like this, "...the beste fourme of education or bringing up of noble children...". He already is linking the word "education" with "noble"...pretty sneaky. Sir Elyot firmly believes in, as he wrote, "the necessary augmentation of our language."

Anyway, if Sir Elyot and his ilk flooded English with Latin and Greek loans this way, it might work for bringing old and lost words back in to English.

Thoughts anyone?

To further understand how the English tongue became swamped with Latin loans, one may want to read 'The Civile Conversation" (c.1581) by George Pettie.

Pettie holds that borrowing from Latin is very worthwhile. He says, thusly, "...for it is in deed the ready way to inrich our tongue, and make it copious, and it is the way which all tongues have take to inrich them selves." His main thought was that somehow English was under developed, unlike French, Italian, and Spanish. The latter were rich because of their Latin base, and Latin was rich because of it's Greek loans.

Yikes! How unthoughtful of Mr. Pettie! The sad thing is that, in the 17th century when most of the marring to English was done, it was broadly held by many "scholars" that the flood of loan words from Latin-French and Greek were needed, and that these words had made English richer. For me, at least, this is an unsettled, open thought.

Instead of L. measure >> M.Eng. mete (Old English metan, Old Saxon metan; cognate with Dutch meten, Old Norse meta, Gothic mitan, German messen to measure).

Meanings:

1.to distribute or apportion by measure; allot; dole (usually followed by out): to mete out punishment. >> to mete out punishment.

2. to measure (although archaic)

EX. "That board has already been meted."

EX. "Can you mete the height of that tree?"

Instead of L. transient >> M.Eng. flitten or fleeting

Instead of L. nausea and L. delicate >> M.Eng. queasy >

> 1425–75; late Middle English qweysy, quaysy; spelling/speaking of the English word might be influenced by A.N. queisier (Old French coisier)- both are from O.N. kveisa

@Stanmund: "The first I knew such high life was possible was hanging out at a party bursting with blumpen upper classes dripping in bling. I kid thee not, one goer showed up kitted out in the most blinging fur coat ever seen by mankind..."

What does "blumpen" mean? Why use "thee" instead of "you"? Why "kitted"? There are many, many everyday words you could've chosen. 'Bling"? Okay, in German we have blinken (sparkle, twinkle, gleam), so I can live with that. I don't think hip-hop/rap artists picked it up from German, though.;-p

You also used Latin words: possible, party, & classes. Here is my take:

The first I knew such high-life was within reach was hanging out at a bash teeming with a high-borne crowd buried in bling. I kid you not, one guest showed up wearing the most blinging fur coat ever seen by mankind...

"That the English language has been enriched by the Latin influx is true, but it has been impoverished by it as well. Due to a Latin bias some English writers borrowed foreign words where home-born English would have done as well, and even better. Moreover, by this borrowing process English has lost the power of making compounds, a power still retained by the Germans in a high degree and which is not only useful but also expressive. Old English formed compounds from independent words quite freely. O. F. Emerson says "the word land was part of at least sixty-three compounds in Old English, while the word even 'evening' was used in twenty-six, and life in twenty-seven compounds, and illustrates the expressiveness of some by such words as life-busy, life-care, lifeday, life-fast 'having life,' life-ward 'guardian of life,' life-way, life-well 'living spring,' life-win 'joy of life,' all of which have not come down to modern times."---pg. 15, Journal of genetic psychology, Volume 12, 1905
edited by Granville Stanley Hall, Carl Allanmore Murchison

English > Latin

soothsaw > proverb

after think > repent

sour dough > leaven

medeful > meritorious

mooned > lunatic

sunstead > solstice

leechcraft > medicine

waterfright > hydrophobia

wanhope > despair

forewit* > prudence

inwit* > conscience

* compare 'nit wit' (not wise, no mind, not thinking), which is still said today.

These are examples of true word swaps. Sad is it not?

Ængelfolc: you have been busy!
Wasn't "wanhope" or something like it used by Gerald Manly Hopkins?? "Hope hath grown grey hairs... (The Wrack of the Deutschland)??
"queasy" is excellent.
ad nauseam >> ad queasiam????
"foresight" for prudence already exists.
moonstruck already exists for lunatic.
"make something bigger" is simpler to use.

BTW which websit do you use for hungarian wordroots? All I get is one asserting links with sumerian.

@jayles:

Sumerian? You must've been reading works by Dr. Alfréd Tóth, right? Dr. Tóth is a big believer in the Sumerian-Hungarian origins rather than a Finno-Ugric one. It seems that this is an idea that is on the Hungarian lunatic-fringe. I have no thoughts about it either way; I try to stay open to new things.

I don't do much with Hungarian roots, so, at this time, I have only the following link to give:

1. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Hungarian_terms_derived_from_other_languages

I'll look around and see what I can dig up. I may be able to put forward a good book or two on the subject.

MfG

@jayles: "ad nauseam >> ad queasiam???? "

How about "toward, at, about, to queasiness"? Latin 'ad-' is a cognate with Germanic 'at'.

Queasy is commonly used in the South.

Instead of wan(n)hope ... Why not just hopeless? Or hopelessness? Maybe even forlorn? ... Or if you want to make it forlorn-hope ... She is in a state of hopelessness/forlornness/fornlorn-hope.

To my surprise, I found a conjugation of biggen: http://www.verbix.com/webverbix/English/biggen.html

And "abrook" ... to brook or endure http://www.verbix.com/webverbix/English/abrook.html

As for writing, I have been making a willful effort recently to use more "anglish" words and it is hard to do so at times without sounding like you lack an education. I just wrote a seven-page short story and as I was using more "anglish" words, I found myself doing like Stanmund and slipping into thou and thee ... Which I like! I'd rather pick up the anglo-saxon form and use "thu" but that would bewilder/bemuse most folks. I'd like to use thu and ye (singular and plural but not as a "polite" form) and return to using "you" as the objective form. I wrote the whole story that way ... including using thy/thine ... tho I didn't follow the old of using thine instead of thy when the following word began with a vowel.

The more difficult part was whether to use st or est with the stem of the verb! lol I just went with what sounded right. Of course, in the South, we solved the singular/plural forms of you a long time ago ... you is singular and y'all is plural!
(We even retain part of the old form of saying "you two" from anglo-saxon)

Forthright's Forsoothery - http://phrontistery.info/archaic.html

"...it is hard to do so at times without sounding like you lack an education."

This is the kind of thought that must be washed away. The "academics" have done a good job of selling this one to the folks!

"To my surprise, I found a conjugation of biggen" I don't make up words, like so many do, if I don't have to. That's why I also wrote where I got it from. I like the word, for what it's worth.

"Instead of wan(n)hope ... Why not just hopeless?" We would save "wan" (O.E. wann dark, gloomy < PGmc. *wannaz) and bolster "hope". I think it better, since wan(n) does not seem to be found in other Germanic tongues, save for English's nearest kin---> Old Frisian wann "dark".

Ængelfolc: I have never heard the word biggen (although there is a fighter airfield near London called Biggin Hill). It may be in some dictionary, and maybe there are people out there using it, but I would call it uncommon/nonstandard English. I could not use this word in the real world, what about "greaten"?

@jayles:

"I would call it uncommon/nonstandard English" Why...yes it is! That's the thing, we are talking about giving "standard English" a makeover.

Yes, "greaten" (first said c. 1614) is also a true, long forgotten, word that is now thought of as archaic, or "non-standard" English. It means "to make or become great or greater". It is good English--both words are.

"Can I greaten my political standing?"

Why couldn't you say these words? "I'd like to greaten the size of my house." Maybe it would sound odd, but so what? You'd be the talk of the town; a little quirky and offbeat! LOL

"Biggin" in "Biggin Hill" may be from the Scottish word meaning "a house, a cottage, a building". The word 'big' here is from Middle English biggen "to inhabit" < Old Norse byggja "to inhabit", akin to Old English bū(i)an "to build", German bauen "to build". This in mainly said in Scotland and North England.

A 'big(g)ing' or a 'biggins' is a 'stead, dwelling, home or a building'. There is a small town called Biggin in North Yorkshire, England. There is also a township called Newbiggin in the parish of Middleton-in-Teesdale, co. Durham; also a township in the parish of Shotley, co. Northumberland. "Newbiggin" >> "new building".

Ængelfolc: Good. I almost put "biggen" instead of "enlarge" (vocabulary) on a student report, but sadly we have to teach the "normal" words first. I don't find "enlarge" too bad; better than "expand" anyway. Norman french words have been around a long time. BTW I was taught at school (after the dinosaurs died out) that "big" and "get" were low class words and to be shunned; just because they are Norse perhaps.
Bug word of the day: "authoritative" - why do we have author AND writer? Why bring in the Greek? Oh no! it just LOOKS greek! really should AUGMENT my vocabulary!
A trustworthy source would be fine.
Nice word of the day: someone said "mother language" and I corrected to "mother tongue" as it is the standard phrase; whereas "tongue" for language usually sounds old-fashioned. Not often we can soundly switch to real English!

@jayles: "BTW I was taught at school (after the dinosaurs died out) that "big" and "get" were low class words and to be shunned; just because they are Norse perhaps."

Wow...'after' the dinosaurs died? LOL! Were you really taught that those Norse words were "low class" and should be forgotten? I guess that highlights and underpins my whole thought about "academia" being the main problem.

"Bug word of the day: "authoritative" - why do we have author AND writer? Why bring in the Greek? Oh no! it just LOOKS greek! really should AUGMENT my vocabulary!
A trustworthy source would be fine."

Your meaning here, for me, is betwixt and between. What do you mean? I know that 'authoratative', 'authority', 'author', and 'augment' are all kin to one another. Are you asking for a trustworthy book to grow you wordstock?

I myself do not like the word 'augment'. It is an unneeded word; It is overmuch. English speakers, instead, can say build up, grow, strengthen, beef up, make greater, "greaten", wax, asf.

What's more, a word akin to AUGMENT (from the same PIE root as the Latin and Greek) already was in Old English before it was taken in to English:

Old English ēaca (ON auki, Danish øge, Icelandic auka, Swedish öka; Gothic aukan; akin to German auch = English eke, eek). It means "to supplement; add to; stretch; to increase; grow; lengthen; enlarge. Why anyone thought English needed AUGMENT is way beyond me!

Sadly, the word only lives in the phrase "eke out" >> "They managed to eke out a living by farming a small piece of land."

Middle English eke, eake, eek "olso, too, in addition, moreover < Old English ēac, ēc = Dutch ook, Old Dutch ōk, Old Saxon ok, Old High German ouh (ouchon), Old Norse auk, Danish og, Swedish och, Gothic auk < PGmc. stem *auk-.

So, say instead, "(I) should indeed EKEN my wordstock!" ;-p

Ængelfolc: "A trustworthy source would be fine." Sorry, just meant we could use "trustworthy" instead of "authoritative" before the noun "source", whereas in another context, say, "She was very authoritative", we couldn't. Context changes meaning!
"Were you really taught that big & get... low class...." Yup, and then came rock n roll!

Sometimes it is easy enough to explain the meanings of latinate words, for instance, "incident"

@jayles >> "There was a happening in your class today", but that IS foreboding, isn't it? I like it, even if the status quo does not. Maybe, "goings-on" for incident would work, too.

I'll have to work on METAPHOR....

Ængelfolc: metaphor

I didn't doubt that there was biggen existed, I was thinking that it was an Anglo-Saxon verb and was wondering how it would conjugate ... but it is a Middle English creation.

There is biggen from Middle English and embiggen from the late 1800s which was brought into play on a Simpson episode and later used in a scientific paper (see below) ... I allllllmost used it to in when I was reviewing a paper written by a Tunisian woman. She needed to add the phrase "venture capital for businesses to expand" I started to put in embiggen. I still might but it's pretty important for her so I'm on the fence about it. If it were my paper, I'd do it!

1996, Dan Greaney, The Simpsons, episode 3F13: “Lisa the Iconoclast”, credits, beneath the statue of Jebediah Springfield: A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man.

2006 November 22, Riccardo Argurio, Matteo Bertolini, Sebastián Franco, and Shamit Kachru, Gauge/gravity duality and meta-stable dynamical supersymmetry breaking, published 2007 January 23, pages 24{1} and 26{2}:
{1} For large P, the three-form fluxes are dilute, and the gradient of the Myers potential encouraging an anti-D3 to embiggen is very mild.
{2} While in both cases for P anti-D3-branes the probe approximation is clearly not good, in the set up of this paper we could argue that there is a competing effect which can overcome the desire of the anti-D3s to embiggen, namely their attraction towards the wrapped D5s.

2010, September 21, If a future turn of events in Africa was seen as requiring the island’s military role to be embiggened and its facilities rendered much more secure http://www.economist.com/node/17082686

---

On another note, I was thinking of using safeguard for protective as in "safeguarding walls" for "protective walls" but "safe" is from Latin!

Maybe "forfending walls"? That might work.

Here is the paragraph:

Jared wasn’t the only one who lived outside of the protective (forfending) walls but those who did were often viewed with mistrust of not wanting to be part of the Gathering. Blatant individualism could lead to one being shunned until one repented.

I replaced suspicion with mistrust.
individualism?
repented? Maybe rue? "... until one showed rue" ... That just doesn't flow.

BTW - I created an Anglish page on Facebook ... So if you have FB, you can "like" it and start a thread there. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Anglish/242781915742432

@jayles: I can see what you mean! Greek μεταφορά (metaphorá) means "a transfer" < metaphérein "to transfer".

META means "beyond, after, among, behind, higher, over" or "change or alteration of something". Greek μετά is akin to O.E. mid "with, together with, into the presence of, through, by means of, by, among, in, at (time), in the sight of, opinion of”", ON/Icelandic með, and the other like Germanic words. Both are allegedly from PIE *medʰi- "with".

-PHOR(E) means "bearer of...", "thing or part doing the bearing", "carrier" < phérein "to bear"

metaphor < lit. "to carryover from one word to another"; The comparison of one thing to another without the use of like or as.

Icelandic says myndhvörf/myndhverfing/myndlíki(ing) "image, picture turning/ likness".

Wait...we have a good English word for "metaphor": KENNING.

Thanks, AnWulf, for showing that "(em)biggen" is right and true....even today!

There were only about 500 words of Latin-French origin in English before 1250 AD, about 1000 before 1400 AD. Maybe that is the cut-off?

Those with the will should scour (from Old Norse skūr) the wordstock for all Latin-French words that came in after 1400, and find an English or Germanic word to put in its stead.

Thoughts?

It's hard to know which Latin words came into Anglo-Saxon before 1066 (Battle of Hastings) unless the history of the word is dated. The wordbook on my computer doesn't usually give the dates. It just states the source. I'v found myself lately looking thru a number of sources ... I now have an online etymological site and two Old English sites that I use along with the computer wordbook/thesaurus. Even then, I often miss words like selfhood.

Bulwark might work tho, to me, it has a navy feel to it. I think I'v usually seen associated with ships.

Make amends ... amends ... Old French amendes ‘penalties, fine,’ plural of amende ‘reparation,’ from amender.

I had considered forswear but that means more to give something up ... I would hav to write: ... until one forswore his selfhood. It doesn't quite have the impact of ... until one repented.

But I like selfhood. In another story, I'v been using selfstanding for independent. I don't know if it is because I'm used it, but it fits pretty well. Now I'm just looking for an opportunity to use (em)biggen! lol

@Jayles ... I agree. That's is more or less my method. It it is short ... one or two syllables ... then I'm usually good with it. Once the words start getting longer, I start looking for other words. I'm finding it a lot of fun to look for different words and learning quite a bit along the way!

In the story I'm writing, I've decided that the "bad guys" will use lean towards using the Latin based words ... while the pro-freedom (almost wrote pro-liberty) side will lean towards the Anglo-Saxon based words. Thus the oppressors will commune regularly, denounce individualism, and demand repentance. While the freedom lovers will gather together and mark their selfhood.

Two words for today: Honor (verb and noun) and color (hue?) ... These may be two keepers. The words that I come up with just don't fit the use.

Anglo-Saxon has a verb weorthian ... to make worthy / to honor ... I haven't found a modern verb form for it.

AnWulf: IMHO in general, good storytelling (and poetry) uses as many real English words and phrases as possible. The short Saxon words are more punchy and feeling-based. There is no harm in having a few leitmotif latinate phrases for the oppressors, but long sections of latinate language become boring - okay for business and academics but not what you want to read on the beach. On the other hand I found hobbit-speak and elven-tung annoying and unreadable so one can go too far outside the mainstream.

"The American influence is far too prevalent and not necessarily benign"
prevalent >> widespread
sway doesn't seem to work for influence.
necessarily>> ??
benign >> ???

Oops! I meant pervasive>> widespread

I think Chaucer is for the most part okay; but the KIng James bible uses phrases like "evil concupiscence" (whatever that is) in places so it depends on what part you are looking at. The point being that Chaucer is generally quite intelligible to the modern ear.

@AnWulf: "Anglo-Saxon has a verb weorthian ... to make worthy / to honor ... I haven't found a modern verb form for it."

O.E. weorþian or weorðian "to honor, to endow,adorn" < O.E. weorþ "worth, deserving, esteemed, honored, price, value, dignity" < PGmc. *werþaz (cf. Old Saxon werþ, Old Norse verðr, German Wert, Gothic wairþus, wairþ "price") = English 'worth'.

Instead of COLOR:

HUE, "a color; a shade of a color; tint; blee" < Old English hīw, akin to Old Norse hȳ < PGmc.*hiwjan

EX1. "...the rosy hue of hindsight..."
EX2. "...all the hues of the rainbow..."

BLEE (Archaic), "color; hue; likeness; complexion; shape" < O.E. blēo(h) < PGmc. *blījan, *blīwan. From the same root as English blithe (O.E. blīþe "joyous, bliss, happy").

@AnWulf: "Make amends ... amends ... Old French amendes ‘penalties, fine,’ plural of amende ‘reparation,’ from amender."

D-oh! Sorry...I don't know why I wrote "make amends"---!!

Bulwark is not for ships alone. It is said for any kind of wall built for defense. One can also use it to say "Religion was his bulwark." for any person or thing giving strong support or encouragement =, esp. in times of doubt, danger.

Forswear also means "renounce".

"Brazen selfhood could lead to one being shunned until one crawled back on their guts and begged for forgiveness."

"American overbearingness/sway/might/clout/World standing (standing in the World)/pull is far too widespread/rife/broad/far-reaching/ over reaching and not unmistakably/seemingly/truly/straightforwardly by all means good/friendly/kind/mild/"

You'll have to pick one of each, jayles! (if you think they are good and will work well)

@jayles: "admit (!) norman french words which have become embedded in English eg "use"; "point out"; and so on."

I can see your "point". Good show!

Instead of...L.proverb >> English byword "saying, proverb, catchword, saw, epithet, an object of scorn" (which is L.proverb using English word bits) < Old English bīwyrde (Old High German pīwurti)

@jayles: "admit (!) norman french words which have become embedded in English eg "use"; "point out"; and so on."

I would also like to bring back the English word, and have it along side the Anglo-Norman one.

@Jayles ... The story that I'm writing arose from a chat and a swap of emails. I started it as a lark and saw an opportunity to explore Anglish. I quickly wrote out seven pages and I've been going over them looking for Latinate words and trying to put in Anglo-Saxon based words ... It has been an undertaking!

Even the Anglo-Saxons chose words from other tongues prior to the Norman invasion. So I don't have a problem with using words that fit a nook. But prior to the Normans, AS had a rich vocabulary ... as I'm finding out when I seek other words and there really wasn't a great need for all the Latin/French based words ... a few perhaps but not to the extent that we have them. The AS even had lawyers! ... So you know that they had a lot of words! lol

You're right in that AS words have more feeling to them and that is probably because so many of the Latinate words are used in academics. But I'm constantly surprised at some of the more basic sounding words that turn out to be Latinates ... like task. Task sounds pretty Anglish ... but it's not. It's a corruption of the Latinate tax. Maybe it's ok since we corrupted it! lol

For example, I went looking for an AS word for opportunity. The best AS word that I found was byre ... which can mean anything from a shed to a strong wind to an opportunity. Interestingly, the dative case is byrum ... like the name Byrum. So I looked up the meaning of the name; it was listed as OE for "at the barn" and a couple of other wild ones. HUH? I know that AS/OE for barn is bern so I knew that the name meaning was off. But it showed up on two different sites. meh

You do know that Tolkien was an OE professor! Right? So the hobbit-speak in the Rings series is based on AS/OE words. Heck, there are even passages that are almost right out "Beowulf". So the task for me to find a decent blend that doesn't make people think that it's hobbit-speak! As I said, I started it began as a lark but I think that I can actually put some legs to it and make it longer. Either way, it's fun to write it while using the AS based words (for the good guys anyway!).

As for elf-tongue, one of the AS words for beautiful is ælfscyne (elfshine). I'd love to work that one in! The other one that is often used for beautiful is fæger from which we get "fair" ... Mirror, mirror on the wall, who is the fairest of them all?

@Ængelfolc ... For admit/confess the AS word verb is andettan ... bring it forward and make it “to andett” ... So, I andett, you andett, he andetts. Then we could take Edward the Confessor BACK to Edward the Andetter. Actually, it was Andettere but we don't need the extra e. It sounds a little strange at first but it probably wouldn't take long to get used to it.

Today's challenges/tasks for playing instead of Latin ... the word challenge itself and the word language in the sense of "body language" ... I don't think that "body tongue" fits here. Here is the sentence:

From the body language and nods, it betokened that Jared had agreed to perform the Ritual.

"Ēadƿeard se Andettere (c. 1004–5 Æfterra Ȝēola 1066) sunu Æðelredes Unrǣdes, ƿæs se ǣrendenīehsta Seaxisca cyning Englalande, and endenīehsta cyning of Hūse Ƿestseaxna."--http://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%92ad%C6%BFeard_se_Andettere

@AnWulf: "Today's challenges/tasks for playing instead of Latin ... the word challenge itself"

BEARD > to oppose boldly; defy: "It took courage for the mayor to beard the pressure groups." >> Mid. Eng. had the phrase, rennen in berd "oppose openly" (today's English > to get in someone's beard).

Others are "to call out", "to make/take a stand", " to seek out", "stand up to", "try" (O.Fr. "tirer" < Gothic "tiran")

BODY LANGUAGE >> Bodytalk (-ing) (cf. http://books.google.com/books/about/Bodytalk.html?id=tI0YAAAAIAAJ , it's science). Or, Bodyspeak (-ing)/ Bodyspeech.

"I'm constantly surprised at some of the more basic sounding words that turn out to be Latinates ... like task. "

Me, too, but this is one of the ways English (and Anglo-Norman and Old French) shows its "Teutonicness". Words like disk, desk, risk, musk, kiosk, asf., match up with Teutonic/Norse words like husk, flask, dusk, cusk, and busk.

If the borrowed loans speak and feel English ( the words integrated), then maybe they should stay in. Words such as "concupiscence" (lust) need to be thrown out without ever looking back!!

The "challenge" was for the noun form ... as in the challenge is ... I just finished an Anglish translation of blurb that I saw in the Wall Street Journal.

Bodytalk sounds pretty good. I'll see how it fits.

I agree ... Any word like concupiscence should be tossed at once!

Since this thread has gotten so long ... I posted a translation of a blurb that I saw in the WSJ on my typepad blog. You can comment here or there.

http://lupussolus.typepad.com/blog/2011/08/sun-blasts-slam-into-earth-anglishanglo-saxon.html

The Facebook links are at the bottom of the blog for anyone who wants to comment there as well.

And if anyone posts something on their own blog, post it here and I'll go read it when I get the email.

Today's challenge: translation ... rendition, rendering, conversion; transcription, transliteration are all Latinates! Maybe "tongue-shift" or "tongue-rework"?

Remembering your latin: terre, tuli, latum meaning to bear or carry, translation could be brought across as "bringing across" or "bringing over".....

To say ... Using "bearingacross" just sounding like throwing words together, doesn't really convey anything and crossover is already another word. If we calque German it would an "oversitting" which doesn't convey anything. That could be be another world for babysitting or sitting with an elderly person.

For the verb, I can just say I want to put this in Anglish and get around it. But the noun is a different creature. Might as well bring the OE noun getheode (geþeode) out of retirement and use it. It's close to Icelandic þýða (v) and
þýðing (n). The "eo" was often a "ü" like the "y" in OE or "u" sound. So I would be good with that.

In the getheode that I did, I also used ken, craft, and dight are in the wordbook.

For scientist: kenkrafter (ken+kraft+er) - ken (knowledge) ... word from OE cennian.

For national administration, I used: theod-dight - OE þeod (national)+dight (from OE diht - administration office ... pre-Norman Latinate dictare - dictate).

I got a little a little creative with satellite (from Latin for attendant): The options were: OE - fylgend (m) or fylgestre (f) - follower or observer / geneat - companion follower (esp. in war) dependant vassal tenant who works for a lord / gesith - companion / gethofta - comrade, mate, follower.

I picked fylgestre (f).

For communication system, I used broadcast network ... in the OE getheode, I used sprecungnett. I guess that I could have used "speaking/talking network" for Anglish but broadcast is already widely known in that field.

"The "challenge" was for the noun form ... as in the challenge is ..."

CHALLENGE, "something that by its nature or character serves as a call to battle, contest, special effort, etc.", "difficulty in a job or undertaking that is stimulating to one engaged in it." < 1175–1225, Mid.Eng. chalenge < Old French chalonge < Latin calumnia "trickery, slander, deception". Akin to English calumny.

French is weird in the way it changes C [k] to CH [sch] before "a". Ex. Latin castellus (castle in English) became château in French. Same for the word 'challenge' above.

So, one could say the following, which rests on one's meaning:

* struggle > "It was a struggle for me to do it."

* gauntlet, gant(e)let (from Frankish *want-) > "He was always willing to take up the gauntlet for a good cause."

* ordeal > "Recovering from the crash was a big ordeal for me."

* trying (from Frankish *tiran < Old Saxon *téiran < Gothic taíran) > "Boxing with a professional was very trying."; "I had a trying day at the office"; "2011 was a trying year."

* tough > "The test was tough."

* hard-won > "The Norman's win over England was hard-won."

* hard > "It was hard for the jury to make decision."

Others to think about: wearisome, wearying, wearing, burdening, burdensome, asf. The English words seem to be more fitting to the thing talked about, whereas the Latin-French seems to have a more wonted, broader bearing. There is no one-to-one swap word on hand, nor is it needed. IMHO.

@AnWulf: "Today's challenge: translation ... "

In German, "übersetzen" can mean many things: to put over, to cross over, to translate, to render, to interpret, to decode, and on and on. It, word-for-word, means "over setting".

Old English has oferlǣden, ārecc(e)an, āwendan, as well as, geþēodan. Why not say the good old, "to English [something]" ? > to translate or adapt into English: "Alfred the Great wanted to English the bible." Then there is always "Anglicize", with the Englished Greek suffix that could be said to mean "translate".

Viel Spaß beim Übersetzen!

@AnWulf: "For national administration..."

Why use the Latin-rooted 'dight', when þēnung. þēning "f service, ministration, office; attendants; service of a meal; book of a service" is direct from Ænglisc? >> þēod/þīod-þēnung/þēning.

May I put forth my word for Satellite >> āsmiþodmōna (lit. "a moon made from metal")

Also, the Icelandic þýða < ON þýða, þióð < Teutonic *þiud(d)ijanan. "Gætirðu þýtt þetta fyrir mig?" >> "Could you translate (lit. 'nationalize in our tongue') for me?" Whence also German 'deuten, deutbar, deutlich, Deutung', asf.

Cf. þēodþrēa "national disaster", þēodġestrēon "national wealth, treasure", *þiudiskaz "of the folks, popular", þēodcyning "national king". Middle English still used þēod(e)/ theod(e), too.

I thought that we had settled that pre-Norman Latinates are OK.

Þenung could be used. I chose dight because the word is short, in the nowadays wordbook, and it is a pre-Norman Latinate. Thus the Saxons must have found the word useful enuff to have chosen to use it. But hey, there is always bendability among users. One is not bound to use one or the other.

Your suggestion for satellite certainly covers artificial satellites if there is a need to be specific ... and would be a good choice as well but it's kind of long (five syllables). Satellite is three syllables (artificial satellite - seven) whereas fylgend, geneat, and gesith are two syllables and fylgestre and gethofta are three syllables.

I'm not sure whether to change to spelling to match the nowadays use of the letters or change the pronunciation to match the old use ...

y=ü and in many cases has mutated to the long i as in fire (OE fyr)
g=y before e.

eo=oo or u or ou (as in you)

Thus fulyestre, yeneat, yesith, and yethofta ... and yetheode or yethude

geol = yule; geong = yeong = young (yung?) ... BTW, knowing this then it become clear that yeoman is the contraction of yeong+man.

My tendency is to pronounce the leading g hard as in get. Tho there are instances of pronouncing it as j as in general ... What the heck ... people (Anglo-Saxon spelling of peupel similar to þeod?), could just accept it the way it is and let the pronunciation find its own worth.

I wouldn't mind bring back the thorn þ or at least having it has a choice again. I'v gotten used to using it!

My first stake in Anglish is to use fewer Latinates. If there is a nowadays English word, unmistakable blend shaping of the word itself, then I'll use that before I start thinking about bringing back an OE word.

That said, there is no reason not to look back to the OE stock if a new word needs to be created ... like satellite. If you're not happy with an OE word, look around at ON ... still not happy ... ok, maybe then try to create one from Greek. If there is an outland word for a thing like a kayak ... then just use kayak. I have no problem with that.

Yesterday I had an outland friend ask me what is academic writing. She needed something for her English class. So I told her:

Academic writing is basically one researcher writing for other researcher. That may be a student doing a simple research paper for his professor or it may be the professor writing a research paper for publication. And since it is meant to impress other academicians, then it requires that the writer find the longest, most multi-syllable Latinates that can be found! Even better if you can string several of them together along with a Latin quote from some long-dead scholar.

AnWulf: Yourr take on academic writing is not wrong; however outlanders sometimes have more basic problems with "academic" style eg using "I" and "you" instead of writing more objectively; some from non-European cultures may have trouble understanding paragraphs: it really depends on what you were taught at school. We like to have a systematic approach to a topic; in some cultures it's more like a spiral and one may have no clue what the real topic is until the end (or at all!). For example:
"Korean no paragraph.
Each sentence next line."
if you see what i mean.....

@AnWulf: "I thought that we had settled that pre-Norman Latinates are OK."

I think they are okay, but if there is a Germanic English word in the wordstock, why not work with it instead?

"Your suggestion for satellite certainly covers artificial satellites if there is a need to be specific ... and would be a good choice as well but it's kind of long (five syllables)."

Yes, it is a long word...have you looked at the German tongue lately?!

Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz >> "Cattle marking and beef labeling supervision duties delegation law"

Anyway, great BLOG...I liked your Ænglisc geþeode!

@AnWulf: "Tho there are instances of pronouncing it as j as in general ... "

Do you mean in latter-day English? Or, that there are times in Old English? The only "g" sounds I know of in Old English are:

ġ > soft 'g' said /j/ >> Old English ġeoc 'yoke'

g > hard 'g' said [ɡ] >> Old English gōd 'good'; Also, as the voiced velar spirant said [ɣ] >> dagas 'days' (cf. Danish jeg "I" > /jaj/, [jɑj])

Loan-words brought in the [ʤ] as in enġel 'angel' < PWGmc. *angil

A) "American inflows are far too widespread and not always of themselves helpful..
B) "We are swamped with input from the USA, which is not of itself a good thyng.
You may vote ....

B) "We are swamped with input from the USA, which is not of itself a good thyng.

"American might is far too over reaching, and is by no means always taken as a good thing."

My 2 Marks... ;-)

Instead of Academic >> Learned, Enlightened, Knowledged ?

1)"Enlightened" !!! I think not! (Bedimmed would be more truthful)
2) The nice thing about "influence" is it covers military and economics AND rock and roll and culture in general; so "might" is only half of what I want. (It is in fact a title for a very broad open-ended essay). "Influence" might also include the way in which American values, the american dream, baseball caps, and hollywood have crept into lives around the world. It is a great shame we don't use "inflow" - it has the same roots as influence I think.
3) On being asked off the cuff what the noun from "fat" was; I thought of "fatness" but wasn't sure if it existed, so had to say "obesity". "Despite her obesity I loved her well".
It's like aliens came and wiped out half the common tongue.

I would like to requicken the word "earnest" in the meaning of serious as an adjective, and "serious intent" as a noun. "In earnest" is a "fossil" phrase, but in the KJV bible there is the phrase "an earnest of his inheritance". Earnestly.

"academic" varies in meaning from "learned", "studious", "theoretical" according to the context. There seem to be many "academic" words for which there is no readymade standin, for instance: theoretical/empirical/practical/pragmatic.I think even German has greek borrowings for most of them too. "in a thinking way"/"in a working way" ??? Or is there some AS that could be requickened??

@Jayles ... Very true. I'm reviewing a paper from a Tunsian woman. She has plenty of paragraphs but she seems to have trouble knowing when to end a sentence ... It's not unusual for her sentences to be four or five lines long in Word. It drives me nuts. She also tends to say "you" a lot. She doesn't have the grasp of writing in 3rd person. It makes me wonder if they write papers that way in A

OK, it cut off my answer ... Let's pick this up where I left off.

It makes me wonder if they write papers that way in Arabic.

Fatness is a noun. But we're back to that hate/despise thing again. Fatness sounds less polite than obesity.

@Ængelfolc ... I'm trying to post a rewrite/update of the blog now with changes and more notes but I'm having a lot of trouble with my internet connection (binding?) today. I have a Part II almost ready to post. I'v done the whole article now in Anglish. I'm working on the Saxon now.

LOL ... Yes, I'm well aware of the German tendency to draw together many words to make one long word but English has the opposite goal. It's ok to draw together one or two ... maybe even three ... words, but not after that. Most of the long, multi-syllable words in English are Latinates.

Sometimes it's hard to choose between keeping a long-used, short Latinate like space (Old French espace from Latin spatium) or reviving an OE word in nowadays form like rume (OE rum) Spelled rume to make it unlike room in spelling (also from OE rum) ... similar to Raum. I'm ok with the word space ... short and simple ... but if I'm really trying to cut out the Latinates, then I should go with rume just to offer up the choice. I'm ok with either.

But that brought me to thinking about that most of our aerospace (greek+latin) and aeronautical (greek+greek) words are mostly fremd-words.

I'm also ok with most Greek-based words because many of them were coined by non-Greeks for scientific terms. The Greeks didn't invent the word electricity ... Englishman William Gilbert brought it into being in 1600 for a paper that he wrote in Latin. So he chose a Greek word, changed it, then Latinized it, then Anglicized it ... so, aside from the Icelanders who calqued Gilbert's word, the word electric, or some form of it, is used in other Germanic tungs and many other tungs as well. So in reality ... It's not really a Greek word. Sociolinguists will say that makes it an English word.

Having said that, the well-used word in English ... place (from Greek plateia, fem. of platys "broad," ... replaced O.E. stow and stede as locations (tho one still sees them in place-names). Keep using place or use stow and sted(e)? Nowadays use of stead has dropped the location meaning.

Yes, I was referring to nowadays speaking of OE words. Geþeode could be written as yetheude to better show the Saxon way of saying it or left as geþeode (getheode) and let the speaking fall where it will.

I'm torn on that. I know enuff OE to say it the right way ... but most people would probably say the ge hard as in get and say ... ge-THEY-ode or maybe ge-they-OH-day ... just as they say BAY-oh-wolf or even Bay-OH-wolf for Beowulf which is really should be said as two (not three) syllables.

Another word that I discovered that was used in the middle ages but was replaced by a French word ... Fremd! Yes, just as in German. Used as both a noun and an adjective frem, fremd, fremde, fremþe - strange(r), foreign(er) ... used in OE and ME ... fremd, fremder, fremdest. But then you can't say "stranger danger!" lol

AnWulf: "I'm reviewing a paper from a Tunsian woman." A model Euro-style academic paragraph usually goes like this:
1) A short sentence to introduce the topic of the paragraph.
2) A longer sentence that clarifies the exact point that you wish to make.
3) More sentences, each one dealing with evidence to support your view/assertion/point.
4) Sentences weighing the evidence or arguing you view.
5) A final sentence summarizing and/or linking to the next paragraph.
We do this almost unconsciously but people from other cultures/traditions need to learn and stick to this schema.
And Good Luck!!!

FATNESS (n.) < Old English fǣtnes (before 1000 AD); Can mean "obesity" or "the fatness (richness) of the land"

Other ways to say it >> overweight, big, hefty, stout, heavyset, heavy, husky, overfed among others.

Besides, "obesity" doesn't mean simply fat, it's really fat, very overweight!

The English words are much more truthful, maybe because they are better understood? Pseudo-scientific complexes are named with awful words like plenitudinous, distended, corpulent, avoirdupois, asf.

@jayles:

Inflow and inflowing are in the English wordbook. Feel free to say them!

Theoretical > German 'rein gedanklich'

Empirical > German 'erfahrungsgemäß'

Practical > German 'angewandt'

Sadly, we do say 'pragmatisch' and 'praktisch'...;-(

I'm still having binding (connectivity) problems. At last! It updated. So check out þe whole þing in Anglish: http://lupussolus.typepad.com/blog/2011/08/sun-blasts-slam-into-earth-anglishanglo-saxon.html

Anyway, for þe word agency, I took your suggestion and used þenung (thenung). I'm not sure if þat is a great choice since it shares þe root wiþ þegn (thane).

I was þinking earlier today þat if I were creating a word, would I just an anglo word or using a word from anoðer tung. For example, let's say þe word for rocket didn't exist and I needed a word to describe it. Well, it kind of looks like a sharpened pencil. Can't really call it "pencil" ... I would probably call a "karandaash". Why, because þat word means pencil in Russian and it sounds pretty cool. In tung-school, we would say, "ochen' karandaash!" (geþeode: very pencil) for "very cool" which bewildered our Russian instructors. One asked us ... "What does þis mean ... very pencil?" So maybe þe Greeks were initially bewildered as well by þe "amber power"!

I found a couple of more out-of-date words þat could be requickened. Frain ... question boð as a noun and a verb. Used up þru Middle English.

Huru ... I really like þis word. It's OE and has several meanings: at least, at all events, at any rate, in any case, however, even, yet, only, indeed, certainly, especially ... And it's just fun to say! lol

Þis will make Ængelfolc happy ... as it turns out ... þe word "touch" is not a Latinate but Frankish! - tokkōn, tukkōn (to knock, strike, touch)

I was pretty tired last night ... sorry for all the typos!

Touch is listed at Germanic but since it came to English thru French ... I'm guessing it was from the Franks.

@AnWulf:

Yes, TOUCH is Germanic from Old (Low) Frankish! It is akin to TUCK and TAKE, too. There are many Frankish words, like this one, warped by French spelling and way of speaking.

As for 'þenung', see here: http://bosworth.ff.cuni.cz/031636

No worries!

Challenge of the day - curious ... As in, I'm curious to know. Why is he asking? He's just curious. Curiosity killed the cat. ... intrigued, interested, inquisitive ... All Latinates.

frymdig and fyrwit (vorwitzig in German) show up in Anglo-Saxon. I know that I can say, "I'd like to know." However, I'm looking for just one or two words to put in its place.

@AnWulf: "U.S. (United States) - J.L. (Joined Lands) / America(n)"

United States of America >> Geáned Landes of Nīewe Middaneard (or Nīewe Weorold)

@AnWulf: "karandaash"

Russian Karandash

I'm glad that you caught that ... I thought that I had changed it to WL ... Welded Lands. Now I'll have the check the FB page and the wiki page. Recall that is for the Anglish bit. I go back to Anglo-Saxon only when there is no other words that are fresher.

When I get to ending the AS bit, I'll need that but isn't it "Geanlæht (united) or Gegeanlæced (joined together)"? Either the abbreviation would be GL or some have offered Ricu (Reichs) so it would be GR. I'll have to think about that.

But not tonight, it's already late and I'm very tired. Early day tomorrow!

@AnWulf:

Geánlǽcan >> 1. To make one, join, unite 2. to unite one person to another, unite persons as associates 3. (Intrans.) To join together in an undertaking

Also ...Gædertang >> adj. Continuous, connected with, united.

Geáned >> Made one, united (cf. German vereint).

Gemód >> united, having the same purpose.

Samrád >> (adj.) Harmonious, united, "Se cræftga geférscipas fæste gesamnaþ ðæt hí hiora freóndscipe forþ on symbel untweófealde treówa gehealdaþ sibbe samráde."

(?) Rīcu

Take your pick...

I woke up this morning with the answer to "curious" ... wonder.

I am curious - I wonder
He is just curious - He is just wondering
Curiosity killed the cat - Wondering killed the cat

Ricu is the plural of rice.

Here's my new AS word of the day: líhtingnes - Strong Feminine Noun - lightness of taxation ... Taxes were an issue even back then! lol

I'll look into the other words. Thanks for the tips on those. But for now ... gotta get moving!

@AnWulf: "Ricu is the plural of rice."

Yes, I know. What I meant was, "(fill in the O.E. word for "united") + Rīcu. That's what (?)Rīcu meant.

I was just wondering why was the cat wondering???

I think the cat was wondering about snooping about.

I am curious - I am snooping/nosy
He is just curious - He is just nosy/snooping
Curiosity killed the cat - Snooping/Snoopiness killed the cat

This week's challenge: to teach how to teach the sounds and spelling of English in fifteen hours flat, hopefully without mentioning "articulation", "phonemes", "glottal stops", "labiodentals"(ie 't''d'), or "fricatives" (those effing sounds); can't see a way round "vowels" and "consonants" though.
BTW Cats only wonder about food food food....

""curious" does not suggest any underhand earnest whereas being snoopy or nosey really does.""

CURIOUS
1. eager to learn; inquisitive
2. overinquisitive; prying; spying, peeping, meddlesome, prying refer to taking an
undue (and petty) interest in others' affairs.
3. interesting because of oddness or novelty; strange; unexpected

Ængelfolc: 1) Some dictionaries give all possible meanings. Some are based on a statistical corpus of written and spoken English and give the most common meanings first and (depending on size) exclude uncommon meanings. 2) There are some "different" varieties of "English" around the world in places like Quebec, Jamaica, Australia, and so on; quite what is "standard" English today is a real question; BBC, CNN or ? Sometimes it is like when they put subtitles on Deutsche Welle when interviewing Austrians. I have learnt not to be too dogmatic.

Wonder - verb [ intrans. ]
1 desire or be curious to know something; be curious about

--

On another note ... I'v about made up my that the word "state" as in a political entity (The State of Texas) is ok. The word has been so anglicized from its Latin root from which we also have status and estate. I think the English meaning is a pretty clear break from the Latin origin.

@Jayles ... Do you really mention all that when teaching English? I barely understand what those words mean. I just demonstrate the various sounds that letters can make.

Really? Do you need to mention the word labiodental (lips and teeth) to teach the f and v sounds and how they relate? If you do, just say "lips and teeth words" and you still have fewer syllables and it is much clearer than "labiodental".

fricative |ˈfrikətiv| Phonetics -adjective -denoting a type of consonant made by the friction of breath in a narrow opening, producing a turbulent air flow. ... WTF! That is about as clear as mud.

A phoneme is just a distinct sound ... so say ... distinct sound.

As I read over the novel I'm writing ... I look at all the Latinates! It would literally take a whole rewrite to take them out and then I'm sure how it would come across. It would need a yetheode (translation)! Just writing the short story that I began just to see if I could not use Latinates, not counting where I used them intentionally, has been hard ...

AnWulf: I wrote "to teach how to teach": this means teaching trainee teachers so we have to cover everything. Most of these words fall into the category of technical jargon.....

@jayles: "1) Some dictionaries give all possible meanings. Some are based on a statistical corpus of written and spoken English and give the most common meanings first and (depending on size) exclude uncommon meanings... I have learnt not to be too dogmatic."

Yes, i understand all of these things. My thought was that the word 'curious' can "suggest any underhand earnest" just like snoopy and nosy. Deutsche Welle sub-titles Austrians, Bavarians, Franconians, Tyrolians... any one who doesn't speak standard German. It is sad really. Half of Germany has forgotten how to speak real German! Frisian, Plattdeutsch, asf, are in danger of being lost forever! I agree with my Swabian cousins...""Wir können alles außer Hochdeutsch"!

BTW...I wasn't being dogmatic. I am not an absolutist. I do like all things considered, though. Here, that means all meanings of 'curious' should be acknowledged. That's all.

MfG

Ængelfolc: well done for picking up on my oh so English remark about not being dogmatic! In my world we promote special dictionaries like Longmans Advanced Learners' which show word frequencies and indicate Br and Am usage and specify the most common meanings first. I consider them far far superior to old fashioned dictionaries which just explain one word with another eg obgleich = obwohl. One really needs to know that/if obgleich is slightly more quaint or unusual. (?? Just off the cuff!).
Not worth arguing over your sources but to me "snoopy" smacks of Murdoch's apparatchiki hacking into your mobile phone messages; it goes far beyond innocent curiousity and good taste; but who knows? someone somewhere may have used it like that.
mfG

@jayles: "In my world we promote special dictionaries like Longmans Advanced Learners' which show word frequencies and indicate Br and Am usage and specify the most common meanings first."

No worries! I think Longman's in pretty good. Does this mean that other meaning or usages should be forgotten, down-played, or flatly ignored?

You described curiosity as innocent, which seems to say that there could be more than one kind of meaning for curiosity? ;-p

Cheers!

Ængelfolc: from www.thefreedictionary.com/curious:
"curious, inquisitive, snoopy, nosy
These adjectives apply to persons who show a marked desire for information or knowledge. Curious most often implies an avid desire to know or learn, though it can suggest prying: A curious child is a teacher's delight. A curious neighbor can be a nuisance.
Inquisitive frequently suggests excessive curiosity and the asking of many questions: "Remember, no revolvers. The police are, I believe, proverbially inquisitive" (Lord Dunsany).
Snoopy suggests underhanded prying: The snoopy hotel detective spied on guests in the lobby.
Nosy implies impertinent curiosity likened to that of an animal using its nose to examine or probe: My nosy colleague went through my mail."
Words are rarely complete synonyms in English; they may overlap to a small or large extent in meaning but are often separated in terms of formality (see second post on this thread), usage, or collocations (ie usual words that go with them eg eine Entscheidung treffen cf make a decision, not "do" or "hit"). This is one of the hurdles for Anglish; real English words have different nuances or just sound rustic to the modern ear; maybe this can be changed over time, we shall see.

Today I watched someone trying to explain the difference between
a) I will come with you
b) I am coming with you
c) I am going to come with you
and I thought how buggered English has become. Bit hard to tidy it all up though.

Sounds like an aspiring lover's list of sample sentences!
I wonder what one would get if one asked for one Anglish Muffin. Methinks me will anter a diner and ask them to anlist a cook to prepare one for me. Then I shall come back to this blog and post what has happened.

@Jayles, it all depends on the situation and the times frame. But there's not much of a difference to argue about.

If you want to split hairs on "a" ... I might say that the use of will instead of shall is emphatic. I was taught I shall, you will, he will, we shall, you will, they will and to reverse them for emphasis but maybe that is old school.

Otherwise, "a" and "c" are synonymous with a possible nuance to the time frame. "A" is definitely future tense with a slight nod towards a longer time period ... but could be anywhere from a few second from now to any point in the future: I'll come with you with you (at some undefined point in the future), just tell me when you're ready. Or I'll come with you tomorrow.

"C" is nearer in the time frame: I'm going to come with you when if you're leaving in the next hour.

Without a time reference "c" means right now. Wait a moment, I'm coming with you. But you could put a time reference on it and make it future tense, I'm coming with you tomorrow.

So they could pretty much be mixed and match if said correctly.

AnWulf: yes - the tricky bit is why "What are you doing this weekend?" asks about plans; and why "What will you do this weekend?" doesn't - it is either rhetorical or awfulizes the outlook.
My vote would be to get rid of "I'm going to" ; it is longwinded (periphrastic) and unneeded in Anglish.

@Jayles ... Here's one for ya.

From a comment on another board: http://realgrammar.posterous.com/subjunctive-JIlhA

The authors of the ‘The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language’ distinguish three types of mandative:

the subjunctive mandative,
the ‘should’ mandative
the covert mandtive.

The examples they give, in order, are:
‘It is essential that he be told immediately’,
‘It is essential that he should be told immediately’
‘It is essential that he is told immediately’.

They comment that the second is more common in British English than in American English.

Crucially, they say ‘they are all similar in meaning to "He must be told immediately." In other words, they do not distinguish, as you do, An Wulf, between a subjunctive order and a non-subjunctive recommendation.

My own view on that is that the force of the mandative depends on the meaning of the verb in the main clause rather than the mood of the verb in the subordinate clause.

My reply:

True that the idea will be conveyed with any of them. But to nit-pick:

‘It is essential that he be told immediately’ - If you said this to me, then I would think that you're giving me your opinion that it is essential but the final decision is mine. Thus the subjunctive.

‘It is essential that he should be told immediately’ - To me this is very awkward ... actually almost contradictory. The "should" really softens it up ... almost to the point that it isn't "essential". It's not likely that I would ever say it this way. In fact, if I were editing somebody's writing, I'd cross the should out.

‘It is essential that he is told immediately’ - With this one, you're telling me that it must be done (essential) and done now. The choice or decision to tell him isn't mine.

AnWulf: I'm with you; the "should" version sounds odd to me despite my Brit childhood.
I love the subjunctive version; it sounds so beautiful to me; but then I love subjunctives in Hungarian, French and German too...
The "past" simple tense in English is identical to past subjunctive (except for "if I were you"), so it either betokens a real event in the past OR an unreal event. Compare:
1) If I have time I will call you. > real ; present/future
2) If I had time I would call you > well it's not going to happen so unreal present/future
3) If I had had time I would have called your > didn't happen > unreal past
so in (2) and (3) "had" and "would" are "subjunctive" betokening a non-event.
That's how I teach it.... because we can then go on to:
"I wish I had time to call you" > but I don't so again "had" (subjunctive" is used
"If only I had time to call you" > same story.
I teach it this way because it makes consistent cohesive sense, whether or not it is etymologically true or not.
"O je, wenn ich nur die Zeit haette, Dich anzurufen"
"Azt ajanlom, hogy idejojjon!"
Bugger the french,,,,

I've just spent a great deal of time trying to come up with something for "suggestion" ... All the choices seem to be Latinates. All the Germanic languages seem to be a variation of forschlagen so Jayles' idea of "forelay" ... I'm guessing from "lay forth" or "put forth" looks good.

OE has a matching meaning for the original meaning of suggestion: "a prompting to evil" and that is "mislar" (Incitement to evil, suggestion, bad teaching). Gespan - prompting; tyhting seems likely.

But I'm open to ... suggestions ...

If I may put an idea forward.....

And I'm open to your input

mislār >> this word meant "suggestion" among several others (fōresetnes, cwyðe, asf.). Good word!

put forth, forward >> suggest (lit. "bring from under" < sub + gerere)

Norwegian and Danish foreslå, Swedish föreslå

fōremearcung "title, chapter"

fōrerīm "prologue"

I did another blog ... "Anglo-Saxon" names for the Modern Military" http://lupussolus.typepad.com/blog/2011/08/anglo-saxon-names-for-the-modern-military.html

For the noun suggestion, there is also tyhting - Persuasion, exhortation, encouragement, incitement, instigation, allurement, suggestion. I'm not sure that calquing German works for this. My "foreslam" or "forslap" ... I guess if I said it enuff times, it might start to make sense. I like forelay ... to lay it out ... or foreput.

Forerim doesn't tell me anything. Foretell is already being used. Foresay would be my next choice. Maybe foretale or foresaga. But prolog is Greek, so I don't have a heartache with that. If I were going to change it, I'd just use the whole Greek word - prologos.

I'm looking for a simple, short replacement for "quote".

@Jayles ... The world input could double up as suggestion. I have a suggestion becomes I have input. The word is already used and fits. I suggest could be "I put in" or "I put forth". Works for me ...