“Anglish”

"Job" is only Celtic if one accepts it to be from Irish "gob" (lump), but it has not yet been borne out as true. What is known is that "Job" is from Mid.Eng. jobbe "piece, article (of work); a cartload" > Wow! It is a mongrel name if I ever read one! 2/5 Germanic, 2/5 Latin, 1/5 Celtic. Something for everyone!

@jayles:

"The new hire must be able to work without oversight."

@jayles:

Or better yet...

"The new hire must work without oversight."

Why make it too wordy with "able"? Isn't having the "ability" assumed in this example? Isn't it more to the point?

Ængelfolc: the problem with "must" in modern English is the English feel it smacks of being too dictatorial, so often in business people attempt to soften the impact. Quite how we got to this situation I don't know, especially considering that "must" was originally a polite past subjunctive.
One of the difficulties for German speakers is to realize that in German using "must" seems to make things more polite, whereas the opposite happens in English. The same applies to "have to". ("need to " takes the edge off, but really we need to move from command mode to request mode to be safe when doing business).
So for example in a bank:
German: "Sie muessen an den anderen Schalter gehen."
English: "I'm terribly sorry sir, but you seem to have come to the wrong counter. I was wondering if you would like to go over to the other one please".
(Always remembering that length=politeness in England)
OTOH i too detest the work-around "to be able to" but it arises because modal verbs in English are defective in not having infinitives, whereas in German they still do. Also "will be able to" can often be replaced by a simple "can" but many european speakers of Englsh who have a specific future form of the verb in their own language fail to realize that any modal can be used to talk about the future in English.
Finally we should not overlook the fact that the commonest meaning of "must" in English is not obligation, but in fact "logical deduction" eg "Why is she late? She always comes on time. She must be sick or the bus must have been canceled."
Next lecture at 0200 tomorrow

"I'm terribly sorry sir, but you seem to have come to the wrong counter. I was wondering if you would like to go over to the other one please".

It is overwhelmingly wordy!! Are so many words a "must" in England? Really?! Although, the whole sentence (word-string) is English, save "counter" (L) and "please" (L). Good show, jayles!!

German is much more direct. This sometimes comes up in my English (or whatever tongue I am speaking). It is one of the reasons why Germans are often called "rude" or "abrasive", even when they are not. We're all FRANK! LOL

Well, we are all frank Franks! That's what I meant to say.

Ængelfolc: "Are so many words a "must" in England?" I did exaggerate to make the point; however we do tend to prefix bad news with "I'm afraid"; and because we lack the implicit politeness of "Sie" I think we tend to use polite phrases to "wrap the package". Thus on the phone preordering to my local German bakery: "I was wondering if you could save a schwarzbrot for me." Response: "VVVhy do you always VVVunder???" This is gospel truth.
But truly Germany is not alone. My teach yourself Hungarian book notes: "Hungarians are more direct....there is hardly any understatement in Hungary". Just depends on whom you meet though.... we make exceptions for beautiful young women.
"Germans are often called "rude" or "abrasive"..." This is partly a slight clash of cultures (though we are both European in our thinking of course). But there is an underlying linguistic difficulty in the intonation patterns. English people tend to use a series of slightly rising intonations in a normal sentence with a fall only at the end. Some German-speakers seem to have a falling intonation on each word. To an English ear this often sounds preremptory or like a sargeant-major, especially if the speaker carries over the glottal stops from German. Very difficult to correct in an adult learner, unless they are prepared to spend their Sommerferien in England every year. Often not an issue if one picked up English from native speakers as a child - children get intonation easily.
mit freunlichen Gruessen

Ængelfolc: Another obvious example: "Could you tell me when the bus is due please?" is, of course, inherently more polite than "When is the bus due?".

jayles your examples are a taddish strawen. I think every day folk in Britain hardly ever find themselves saying 'due'

It would mostly be a straightforward:

'do you know when the next bus is mate/love/duck?'

or

'hi what time is the bus getting here?'

'hiya do you know when the next bus is?'

'hiya do you know when the 175 is getting here?'

'alright do you know what time the bus is coming/meant to get here?'

The coach leaves Kenn (Somerset) at 8:15 and gets into Kippax (Yorkshire) at 15:45

here comes the bus
here arrives the bus

quick, the bus is coming/leaving!
quick, the bus is arriving/departing!

departure lounge - outwards room/hall/yard
departures - outwards
arrival lounge - inwards room/hall/yard
arrivals - inwards
arriving - alighting/endbounding

pickup -

dropoff -

outbound/outwards -

inbound/inwards -

shortstay -

longstay -

overnight -

stopover -

alights -

catch a connecting flight - catch an inlinker flight?

outgoing -

ongoing -

overwintering in the Canaries

oversummering in the Faeroes

take off -

landing -

final approach -

-unloftingwards
-endlofting
-ongeardown
-endpath
-endlag
-endingdown
-flightpath
-endlandwarding
-enddownwarding
-drawdown
-endhaltward

flight 72011 making/on/in its final approach -

flight 72011 making/on/in its endcoming...(incoming/oncoming/homecoming) inending

flight 72011 making its flightsend ?

*flight(s)end* ?

Stanmund: yes indeed; but notice that in all but one case the question was prefixed with the politener "do you know"; this type of question is called "indirect" in the grammar books, as compared to a straight "When is the bus coming?" which might sound too brusque.

Stanmund: the current terms "boarding pass" and "landing card" were in fact coined by a Viking travel agency which offered package summer adventure cruises round Europe with activities such as rape, pillage and plunder. It was big business at the time.

I found a forum for Anglish that isn't being used. I don't like the wiki forum ... it's not user friendly and too awkward.

I've already registered ... Here is the formum: http://anglishmoot.forumotion.net/

@jayles: ""I was wondering if you could save a schwarzbrot for me." Response: "VVVhy do you always VVVunder???"" LOL! That's too much! This way of speaking seems unsettled and wavering. It lacks heart/boldness from my standpoint.

Why should there be anything wrong with saying:

"Please save a Schwarzbrot for me."

"Excuse me, when is the bus coming?"

Why do these sentences come across as too sharp? They are more blunt, but that makes them better understood, feelings aside.

One of the things that I have found to be true, talking about too many loans in English, is muddled, murky meanings.

"Here one can talk anent his thoughts..."

I like the word 'anent' and think it should be brought back into use. I do not, however, like it said as in the sentence above.

Anent-- meaning in regard to; about; concerning, but also (in British English) beside; in line with, is a contraction of anefen(t)/ onefen(t)

Instead of saying "proceed", why not say "wend"? It is still said, although not too often.

"to wend forward", "to wend along", "to wend one's way >> "To Canterbury they wend."; "Great voyages to wend."

Thoughts?

Ængelfolc: "Why do these sentences come across as too sharp? They are more blunt, but that makes them better understood, feelings aside."
Yes indeed they are too blunt and leave feelings aside.
Generally if non-native speakers are using English, they are using it for business or in a business situation (incl tourism) or in some university/academic situation; so there is a need to be diplomatic and take into account the feelings or reaction of the person they are dealing with. English people use "softeners" to oil the wheels of negotiation, trading, and working together. So as well as the ones already mentioned you have doubtless noticed "actually", "in fact", "apparently", "it seems that", "as you may be aware" and so on inserted quite often into communication to soften the impact. If you are doing business in English a few extra words might avoid giving unintended offence, depending on whom you are dealing with of course.
There is I know a gulf between "European" and "English" thinking here; for example:-
walking down the street with a beautiful hungarian woman:
Me: Would you like a coffee?
She: Is that a Hungarian question or an English question? If it is hungarian the answer is no. If it is English then it means you want a coffee!

Ængelfolc: I think it was Willy Brandt (whom I heard giving a speech in 1964!) who said something like: If we want to sell abroad we must speak English, but if they want to sell to us, dann muessen sie Deutsch sprechen! Every working day I bow to the boss's wife (korean), put my hands in the prayer position and say "vannakkum" to a tamil colleague, shake hands with a Saudi student and make sure I use only my right hand to give him worksheets, I don't expect the Ukrainians to smile, but the brazilians are always in carnival mode, and I don't ask the Japanese any difficult questions in case they lose face... Man muss flexibel sein, wenn man mit Auslaender verhandelt
Things are no better or worse just different; we all have our quirks.

www.thecheers.org/Entertainment/article_2222_English-Politeness-and-Manners.html

Here's one for ya ... luxury - O.Fr. luxurie, from L. luxuria ... Even in Icelandic ... It's luxus.

Why use anent when one can use about?

As for wend, that has the sense to wander ... or meander ... Besides, it's too close to wind in pronunciation ...

AnWulf: except that "went" (commonly used as the past of "go" instead of "gang" as used in Scotland) presumably comes from "wend", and does not meander.

What a wild and wonderful weekend we had wandering wainlessly through wet weather and winding narrow wynds. With innards washed in the warmth of wintergreens, we went wending along our way whithersoever westward while whistling wearied and waygone, but without a wanhope nor wrinklesome worry in the whole wide world.

Wow! English wordstrings can an half be wrought with a lot of words beginning with 'W-' How many w- words dose the German/Dutchy translations of the wordbatch above give?

The 'w' staff itself is a way upmost Germanic marker. Can't think of any other sister Germanic languages which can randomly let loose so many w- words in any given everyday sentence as English dose. Guessing English would wield a bigger helping of w- words then German thanks to words starting wh- wr- which are wontless to German, Dutch, Danish, Swedish, Icelandic etc etc.

off the top of my head....

-ing, wh- wr- -ight -tch -dg(e) thw- unbe- -eigh -ough -awn-

all wordbits which are unmistakesomely English and not found in any others (?)

whomsoever, therein, herein, albeit, albethey, heretofore, nonetheless, howbeit, therinabove, thereinunder, insofar, inasmuch, notwithstanding, wherewithal, moreover etc etc

Have underwielded them myself, but I love the above distinctive blends of English compounds. I like all compounds but don't consider compound words like: 'standalone' 'homemade' 'roadwortiness' etc, the same thing nor breed though. Guessing the above wordblending is not an English speciality, what with all the wanton compounding in German - but does German indeed do the ('insofar' 'whomsoever') brand of compounding or is more the 'standalone' stuff (?)

@Stanmund ... "wainlessly"? You went without a car? "wynd"? - Path?

@Jayles ... Yes, went is a variant of "wende" ... I think the past tense in OE of go was eode/eodest/eodon ... sometimes mergers of words took place like am/was.

But the current definition of "wend" is to go in one direction by an indirect route. But I think, and this is only a guess, that we see a merger/confusion of words here as well. Wind/wend share a the same root and with close pronunciation and meanings (wend meant to turn), they merged. For example, we say ... He wound his way to the top. Well, in OE, the verb to wind was a strong verb ... wind, wand, wunden. We lost wand and wunden, using the French "ou" spelling for "u" and it becomes "wound" ... the a pronunciation shift.

As a side note here ... and maybe somebody can give a definite answer ... we went from 2nd person sing "thu" in Anglo-Saxon/OE to "thou" ... I wonder if the initial pronunciation o "thou" was, in fact, "thu" with a spelling change to use the French "ou" (like vous) and match "you"? Maybe we're mispronouncing it nowadays as "thow"?

I just found the answer to my question ... thou was pronounced as thu. Here is what was written:

... However, I checked M. Goerlach's (1991)"Introduction to Early Modern
English" and Dobson's (1968) "English Pronunciation 1500-1700", on
which Goerlach bases his description, and none of them lists /Dau/
among the variants. For "thou" contemporary orthoepists give
apparently only /Du:/ and unstressed /Du/. ...

...

Should this be so, then the /Dau/ pronunciation is perhaps a modern
"guess" based on the analogy with other words in the
Standard. But if it is a mistake it can't be corrected. ... http://linguistlist.org/issues/7/7-1473.html

@AnWulf

indeed 'wainless(ly)' (without wheels) but more to give the meaning of both 'carfree' 'coachless' 'bikeless' etc, then just without a car.

'wynd' is narrow path amongst houses, but still meant it, even though there was more of a feeling of being out and about the land.

Why do some Americanisms irritate people?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/14130942

Here is my reply to a few of his complaints ...

reliable ... goes back to the 1560s in Scotland ... maybe it just stayed alive in America but died out in England.

truck ... can be traced way back to 1610s in usage and to 1794 as a cart for a heavy load ... lorry only back to 1834 as railroad slang and then used in 1911 for a motor vehicle.

mail/post ... confusion on both sides ... in England mail was letters going overseas and post was letters in-country.

faze ... from the Kentish dialect feeze ... to frighten, alarm ... from Anglo-Saxon (AS) (aka Old English) fesian.

hospitalize ... to put in a hospital ... wow, shortened that up!

wrench ... from AS/OE wrenc ... a tool for twisting.
spanner ... from German spannern

elevator/lift ... I like lift ... it's shorter and appropriate ... but it can be confused for the sense of "giving someone a ride" ... As in, "Can I give you a lift?"

gasoline (gas) vs petrol ...

petrol - from Fr. pétrol (1892); earlier used (1580s) in reference to the UNREFINED substance

gasoline ... from gas + o(i)l + chemical suffix -ine ... for the REFINED petrol.

The short form "gas" can be confused when referring to "natural gas".

hood/bonnet ... it's the old Germanic/French thing with two words with essentially the same meaning.

I'm not sure what the author's complaints about the others are ... perhaps if he were to offer alternatives for comparisons.

I cross posted to http://anglishmoot.forumotion.net/f1-talk-anent-anglish in case someone wants to jump out of this rather lengthy forum and start anew.

AnWulf: There are(or were) indeed extensive differences between Brit/Am word usage. Some are minor: on/at the weekend; in (the) hospital; I've got/gotten; accommodation(s); can't/cahn't. The most widespread one is the American willingness to use past simple instead of present perfect: Am: Did you do you homework yet? Brit: Have you done your homework yet? Am: I lost my wallet. Brit: I've lost my wallet. (ie It is still lost) This makes it really tricky for non-native speakers to learn the grammar. (and tricky tor the teacher too!)

"what with all the wanton compounding in German - but does German indeed do the ('insofar' 'whomsoever') brand of compounding or is more the 'standalone' stuff (?)"

Compounding is the way of Germanic languages:

Insofar >> Insofern, Insoweit

Whomsoever >> Not a compound in German...Wem auch immer

Standalone >> Selbststaendig, Unabhaengig

Therein >> Darin

Herein >> Hierin, Hier

Albeit >> Obschon, Allerdings, Wenn auch, and more

Albethey >> Not that I know of...never heard of this compound in English

Heretofore >> Bisher

Howbeit >> Obgleich

Therinabove >> No...never heard of this in English either

Therinunder >> No...although, thereunder is darunter.

Inasmuch >> Sofern, Insofern

Notwithstanding, Nonetheless >> Trotzdem, Dennoch, Nichtsdestoweniger

Wherewithal >> No...Germans say Noetiges (needed, necessary)

Moreover >> Weiters (South Germany), Ueberdem, Ausserdem, Ueberdies, and many other ways.

@jayles: "This makes it really tricky for non-native speakers to learn the grammar. (and tricky tor the teacher too!)"

Do you mean that it is trickier to learn American English or British English?

Check this out: American guide to British English >> http://www.effingpot.com/

"spanner" >> span (O.E. spann/ spannan, P.Gmc.*spannō/*spannanan) + er (from O.E. -ware, P.Gmc. *-warioz)

I think the BBC article about Americanisms in British English is very true, and one could take the article and apply it to English as a whole. It fits well within this forum/talk. The author sums up nicely his thoughts, which apply to the English debate here, too:

"But what I hate is the sloppy loss of our own distinctive phraseology through sheer idleness, lack of self-awareness and our attitude of cultural cringe. We encourage the diversity offered by Welsh and Gaelic - even Cornish is making a comeback. But we are letting British English wither."

mail/post: mail

Ængelfolc: "Do you mean that it is trickier to learn American English or British English?"
No big difference; just in Brit English one must use present perfect where appropriate (I've lost it) where Am English is not so picky/fussy. Confusing, eh?
"only a rudimentary knowledge of grammar..." However the nuances of the English verb are not that simple. "I've been ironing" -> Ich war gerade beim Buegeln - well that's slightly weird German! I often wish we just had simple present and past in English!
AnWulf: in the North of England one can still hear "thou" inside the family usually pronounced "Tha" eg: "'azthaput'baikint'ginnel?" -> Have you put the bicycle in the sideway/passage? (aztha=Hast thou). There is a film "The Full Monty" with this dialect.

thou

"Stick with MAIL." Aussies do.

"But we are letting British English wither." Which begs the question what exactly is "British English"? The regional and dialect variations are I think fading due to the media, TV in particular and of course American influence in movies and some technical areas such as accounting where all the terminology has become americanized. However some brit english is both ephemeral and weird, if lovable eg "titfer"; "have a butcher's"

@Ængelfolc ... A few of the words that I pointed out weren't so much "Americanisms" as they were words that the Americans continued to use while the Brits dropped them or substituted other words ... like "reliable", "truck", and "faze" in the States have a long histories pre-dating the colonies.

And there are times that they are taking the French derived word over the German derived word ... like using bonnet rather than hood ... and yet he complains about the purity of British English! lol

We should introduce him to Anglish ... That would really make his day.

@Jayles ... I like using the simple past when appropriate ... "I read (past tense... maybe we should spell it "red" as in AS or "redd" to distinguish from red the color) that book." (Action completed) ... as opposed to "I've read that book." ... Flip it and ask the question ... "Did you read this book?" "Have you read this book?" ... I can't really say there is a difference in meaning ... at least not to me. Just a different approach to saying it.

The difference could come in with a time qualifier. "I redd that book every day until I finished it."

I've got is probably almost as common as I've gotten but in American English, "I've got" is used (poorly) for "I have" ... Who has the wrench? ... I've got it!

Personally, I like "gotten". Actually it was originally "getten" but the "e" was changed to an "o" ... "got" was an abbreviation for "gotten". THEN, "got" 'was substituted for the original past tense of "gat". You gotta love the twist and turns! lol

AnWulf:' "Did you read this book?" "Have you read this book?" ... I can't really say there is a difference in meaning '. So much depends on the context and situation. One must choose the example carefully to explain. Perhaps "Did she come?" and 'Has she come?" are easier, the second question really asks whether she is still here. A good rule of thumb is if there is a specific time mentioned or implied then do not use the perfect tense. This works nearly all the time. Also In Brit-speak one must use the perfect tense with "just", "already" "yet" "ever" ; so to the Brits "Did you do your homework already?" sounds wrong, (or Am).
Brits also use "I've got" for "I have" (possession); I think that Am uses "i've gotten" instead of "I've become" ; but maybe it depends on where you are from in the states,
i would not profess to understand Americans......... ;=)))

Ængelfolc: "Ich habe tatsaechlich mich gerade gefragt, ob Sie schon darueber Bescheid tatsaechlich wissen, dass Sie wohl zur Zeit in der Lage seien, das englische Hoeflichkeitssystem tatsaechlich zu akzeptieren, oder?

Heard a smidgensworth of that exact same Americanism thing by way of the wireless. Hadn't the foggiest that bods like: 'freight train' and 'train station' are both Americanisms, and thy are outdoing (so-called *British* English) 'goods train' and 'railway station'

Hmmm..is a 'railway set' without the 'trains' and a 'train set' without the 'rails' !! (?)

American English's clout and unlikeness gets far too overcooked. Britain's media elite don't even give an honorable mention to the inroads Jamaican English has had on the English spoken in England. Nobody ever talks of 'Jamaican English' v '*British* English, so why can't we just say American English v English, full stop. Anyway, Jamaican English and Scots English would have to be the first stop of any serious linguist of isms on English. Every man, woman and child in the land, know them two are the two most wayward. JE's clout even fiddled with Britain's accents!

Might wield them unknowingly, but only got so much time for *Americanisms* especially its creepy obessession with casting every Hollywood English actor as some kinda of fiendish swarthy baddie, looking like he's just landed out of somewhere like Marseilles or Naples!

*In truth the actors are often not even English - just Americans casting as English any swarthy baddie they can lay their hands on*

@jayles:

Americans also use "I've got" for "I have" (possession), and gotten.

""Did you do your homework already?" sounds wrong" It doesn't sound wrong to me. Is it grammatically wrong in American-English and English-English?

@AnWulf: LOL!! Yes, we should teach that guy (Americanism- fellow, bloke, man (after Guy Fawkes); Norman rewording of the Teutonic name Widu--whence also It. Guido) a thing or two about a thing or two when it comes to true English!

American English - The History of English

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbvumrknAKs

Laugh-Out-Loud Funny!!!

Ængelfolc: "Did you do your homework already?" not wrong, just American; Brits use 'Have you done' with "already", "just" "yet" and "ever"; unless of course they've succumbed to the American influence.

"...inroads Jamaican English has had on the English spoken in England."

I don't know of any. Jamaica got English from England. It was a British colony. Now, Jamaica has stronger economic ties with America, and American sway is greater.

Also, in English, American English is as of now in the limelight. I can't see how "American English's clout and unlikeness gets far too overcooked." It is a truth that cannot be thoughtfully spurned or overlooked.

@jayles: ""Ich habe tatsaechlich mich gerade gefragt, ob Sie schon ... das englische Hoeflichkeitssystem tatsaechlich zu akzeptieren..."

Ich erkenne die Art an, wie die Briten Englisch sprechen. Ich finde die Sprachart unnoetig hoeflich und allzu sanftmuetig. Es scheint mir, dass man immer einen Eiertanz auffuehren muss. Ueberempfindlichkeit und politische Korrektheit sind Feinde der Kultur . Alte Braeuche sterben dadurch aus.

Meiner Meinung nach...

I really like the idea of Anglish. I mean, I'm not expecting English to go back to its roots overnight, but I don't really enjoy the Latin/French sounding words of English specifically. They sound too foreign. Have you ever heard a Brit say "garage"? Sounds awkward to me. Besides, wordbook makes much more sense than dictionary. The complete annihilation of latinate words may be drastic, but at least the substitution of Anglo-Saxon words is, to me, appealing (and will help me learn German).

Funnily enough, a 'school' (of Fish) is from Low Germanic schōle/ O.E. scolu, sceolu/ W.Frisian skoal

Ængelfolc: Ich bin fast der selben Meinung; ich hasste auch das damalige Klassensystem und verlasster England als junger Mann, und bin kaum zurueck. Ich haette nach Osteuropa uebersiedeln sollen, aber damals kam das nicht in Frage.
Beim Auslandsgeschaeft ist es doch klug, vernuenftig und beruflich, das fremde Kultursystem in Betracht zu ziehen. Seien Sie flexibeler!! m f Gr

Ængelfolc: "a 'school' (of Fish) is from Low Germanic schōle"; we can also say "a shoal of fish" in English, meaning a large number.
Also I forgot to mention in Am English 't' is often pronounced as 'd' so that 'water' sounds like 'warder'.

@jayles: "we can also say "a shoal of fish" in English"

You are right.... 'shoal' is from the same root as 'school (of Fish)". "Shoal" is from the Low Germanic way of saying it (schōle, phon. 'shōl'), and "School" is from the Dutch/Frisian way (skoal, school, phon. 'skōōl'). The word-form 'school' (place of learning) was influenced by 'school' (of Fish).

"Am English 't' is often pronounced as 'd' so that 'water' sounds like 'warder'."

Seems to me that it depends on where you are in the States. I have heard it said (phonetically) wah-ter, wah-der, wudder, war-der, waa-der, asf. Much different 'a' sound, than in British 'woah-ter' or 'woh-ter'.

Here is a long lost word that could be brought back into the fold: Yare (said 'yair' or 'yahr').

It means 'ready', prepared (for action), 'brisk', 'eager'. Also, 'agile', 'lively'. Of a ship >> answering swiftly to the helm; easily handled; Responding easily; maneuverable.

"Make your ships yar(e)!"

"She was yar(e)."

"Fall to't yarely, or we run ourselves aground"- Act I, Scene 1, TEMPEST, by William Shakespeare

"...you shall find me yare..."- Act IV, Scene 2, Measure for Measure, by WIlliam Shakespeare

Thoughts? Anyone?

Already revived by Beatles: "She loves you, yare, yare, yare"

@jayles: I just heard Russell Brand say "woeuh" for 'water' in the movie "Get Him to the Greek". The 'T' and 'R' are all but lost.

A big difference I see between today's Am. Eng and Br. Eng is that Am.Eng pronounce 'r' a lot more. Only in the Southern U.S. is the 'r' softened.

Almost gone are the days of the lovely rolling English 'r'! ;-(

@jayles: May I put forth "anpassungsfaehiger" for "more flexible/adaptable", instead of "flexibler"?

Ich frage mich...'anpassungsfaehiger'...Was wollen Sie damit sagen? Ich bin einfach gegen die kulturelle Vereinnahmung durch politischen Korrektheit und ermutigte Teilnahmslosigkeit. Daran ist nichts auszusetzen, oder?

Ængelfolc: Thank you; I did wonder about "flexibel"; "anpassungsfaehig" is much better; your German is very good indeed!! ;=)) There is actually nothing personal to you in my comment; it is just standard advice when dealing with overseas trade.
BTW I sometimes set my students to write an essay entitled: "The American influence is too widespread and not necessarily benign"; that usually stirs things up!

Ængelfolc: on second thoughts I think "kompromissfaehig" (wenn das auch existiert) is more what I had in mind. I think it is all too easy to just want to "win" when negotiating, (at least that's what my last wife told me!). Maybe I am just being too English when I expe

expect the other side to compromise, not me!

@jayles: "your German is very good indeed!!"

Thanks! I should hope it is... I grew up speaking it! I try to learn all I can about whichever tongues I choose to speak. I try not to take my Muttersprache for granted. I work on my German like I do English. I am always mindful to use German words, not loans, whenever I can.

Same thoughts, other tongue.

@jayles:

I forgot...."kompromissfaehig" sagt man nicht..."Kompromiss schliessend" heisst "compromising". Ich finde "kulturellen Kompromiss" eine gute Vorstellung nicht. Kompromiss bedeutet, dass man etwas behaelt, und etwas verliert.

Uncompromising -> unuyielding
Compromise (n) -> the middle ground
"able to compromise" -> "willing to find middle ground"
I don't think "yielding" really can be used to mean compromise as it suggests a one-sided deal.

@jayles: What about...?

Compromise >> Bargain (Frankish *borganjan)
>> Deal
>> Trade-Off
>> Fifty-Fifty
>> Understanding

Ængelfolc: yes but "a bargain" suggests paying less than a fair value in English, although bargain as a verb does not have this connotation. "Trade-off" or "give-and-take" come closer to the true idea of compromise where neither party is really happy with the deal but it seems to be the only solution in the circumstances. American books tend to categorize this as a lose-lose situation; but it's not necessarily so. "fifty-fifty" I have even heard in Hungarian! such is the penetration of English! but it only truly applies where the parties "split the difference". As you may know the English view marriage as a series of (poor) compromises ending in divorce, which then liberates us to become our true selves again, happier without the constraints......

Ængelfolc: As you may be aware in business the English usually want to find a compromise solution; indeed if there is not a bit of "give and take" they may feel they have been steamrollered. Sometimes it is worth giving them a "rabbit garden" to feed on. i.e something to keep them happy without compromising on what you want. There is a very English expectation that if I give a bit, you should give a bit too and eventually we will meet somewhere near the middle. On the other hand, I wouldn't try this technique with, say, Russians, as they don't play by the same rules!

@jayles: ""...a bargain" suggests paying less than a fair value... "

I think when one 'compromises', that's what happens, no matter what is going on.So how about the ever colorful, "hammer out a deal"? "Horse-trade"?

""Trade-off" or "give-and-take" come closer to the true idea of compromise where neither party is really happy with the deal but it seems to be the only solution in the circumstances. "

I agree with the Americans: compromise = lose/lose. The outcome is never fully taken on by either group, and therefore is a waste of time, energy, and resources. It is better to walk away from a deal, if you are not totally happy with it. I reference your divorce example the make my point! ;-)

My 2 Marks...

Let's play..."Instead of the Latin..."

Instead of the Latin...'inappropriate', lets put the Germanic/English 'unbeseeming' in its stead.

Ængelfolc: unfortunately the term "inappropriate behavior" has become a PC term of abuse. It is bandied about ad nauseam. It is symptomatic of modern influences that I do find it difficult to even find non-Latinate substitutes. (Ah stand-ins!) It is almost like learning a new language! That said, "unbecoming" or "ill-befitting" or "unmeet" behavior, would be better I think.
Whilst I understand your interest in wordroots, I don't find wordroots help students to learn english wordstock very much. For instance, I would guess a link between "devastated" and "waste" but I don't think it would be very helpful. Likewise, crisis, critical, criterion, seem to be linked to "riddle" as in "riddled" with bullets; but the link in meaning is so obscure it doesn't help; unless of course one had already learnt Greek.

Lastly, I stand by my remark: "indeed if there is not a bit of "give and take" they may feel they have been steamrollered." ; English people sometimes feel squashed when trying to negotiate with Europeans; things are too categorical = too "take-it-or-leave-it"; as a trainer my biggest problem was a sort of incomprehension on the part of the trainees, an inability to hear, understand, and take on board what I was saying, a sort of stick-in-the=mud Weltanschauung that brooked no change, when the reality is that different people do things in different ways and one needs to be a little yare in one's tactics.

@jayles: "link in meaning is so obscure it doesn't help; unless of course one had already learnt Greek."

I am with you on this. English root words help native English speakers; Greek and Latin roots help those using Greek and Latin words (like scientists). It seems to me that root-word explanations could only help in teaching a language (esp. understanding). I must say I am not a language teacher, so I have no experience to draw from. It just makes sense to me.

For example, 'devastate' and 'waste' are linked through L. vastus (though 'waste') is from Frankish *wostijan, but influenced by, and merged with, L. vastus to make one word). The prefix 'de-' means "completely, utterly, totally, not, undo, down, off, away," asf, hence 'de' ("completely") + 'vastated' ("wasted"). Explaining this wouldn't help? At least maybe teaching the meanings of prefixes?

"...different people do things in different ways and one needs to be a little yare in one's tactics."

We agree here! Great use of 'yare' and 'brooked'...!

Ængelfolc: prefixes we do eg expose, repose, impose, opposite etc. Sometimes it feels as if one is teaching latin AND greek eg television/telephone/phonetics//video/vision-> farsight/farsighted..... there is however a lack of context with this technique (technology/technical/technician respect/inspect/aspect/prospect/spectacular/spectacle et cetera. Amor vincit omnes....sine qua non... per ardua ad (Opel) Astra... eloszor latint kellene tanulni

@jayles: "How would one teach "anticipated"?"

Aren't most of your students Romance speakers? They should have not problems with Latin and Greek word-bits. I would also say 'anticipate' is more like "to forestall" or "prepare for (something)".

"Sometimes it feels as if one is teaching latin AND greek" You are when you aren't teaching English rooted words. ;-P

Rather than 'anticipate' (to expect), why not say, await (Frankish *wakhton), foresee, foretell, look forward to, see coming, wait for...asf. When meaning " act in advance of", say forestall, block, hinder...asf.

EX1. I anticipated this reaction. >> I foresaw this reaction.

EX2. I anticipated his every move. >> I blocked his every move.

Then you don't have to worry about teaching Latin and Greek! ;-) Maybe one of the keys to reviving true English is to have teachers teach the meanings of Latin and Greek words with English ones.

Television >> Far-sight/ Farseeing
Bicycle >> Two-Wheeler
Automobile >> Self moving/ Self Mover
Helicopter >> Whorl-Wing/ Whorled-Wing (this could replace the Greek word easily). "Whirlybird" has been said instead of helicopter, too.
Aeroplane/ Airplane >> Skyship, Skycraft, Airship, Aircraft (although, 'air' is still Greek)

Automobile >> Self Going (true English)

Ængelfolc: We get people from all over here: S America, SE Asia, Japan, Saudi, Euros, and Russians. Can be good fun!
Latinate words are often taught thru English equivalents: respect/look up to; despise/look down on; postpone/delay/defer/put off. But the usual story - for business and uni they need the latinate words as well. Until the textbooks change there is no other way.
The following comments on German speakers of English come from a good source: "Learner English" editor Michael Swan, a useful bible of first-language influences, which devotes about ten pages each to over twenty different languages.

"Among the features of German which
can give rise to a `German accent' in English are:
± More energetic articulation than English, often with tenser vowels,
more explosive stop consonants (/p/, /t/, /k/); and more lip-rounding
and spreading.
± Different intonation patterns.
± Frequent use of glottal stops before initial vowels, giving a staccato
effect.
± Tendency of some speakers to use a generally lower or higher pitch
than most British people.
Intonation
This varies widely over the German-speaking area. North German
intonation is quite like English. South German and Austrian intonation
often has long rising glides in mid-sentence.
Swiss speakers may end sentences with a rise followed by a slight fall: this sounds odd in English.
Certain features of German intonation transferred to English (to-
gether with the more energetic articulation which is common) can make
speakers sound peremptory. It is worth giving special practice in
wh-questions (which German speakers may produce with a rising
intonation which can sound hectoring to the English ear), and in
requests.
Juncture
A German word or syllable beginning with a vowel is often separated
from what comes before by a glottal stop (instead of being linked, as is
usual in English). This can create a very foreign-sounding staccato
effect:
?
in ?and ?out (German ?aus ?und ?ein).

Automobile >> car (yes it's welsh; why not!)

@jayles: "Automobile >> car (yes it's welsh; why not!)"

Nothing wrong with 'car'. It has been in English since the 1300's, meaning a "wheeled wagon". It was first seen in Gaul (allegedly by Caesar). It is one of the few CELTIC words in English, although not wholly Welsh: Breton 'karr' (chariot); Welsh 'car(r)' (raft, frame); Old Gaelic 'cár' (a cart or raft for carrying things on); Irish 'carr' (a cart, dray, waggon).

It is said that the English tongue got the word from from Gaulish karros. The PIE root *kar, kers- means "to run, to move". Also, the German word for "wheel-barrow/ barrow" is die Schubkarre/ karre; the 'karre' bit is from Celtic car(r).

Other words with the Celtic root 'car', through L. carrus >> cargo, charge, chariot, cart, career, and carry. Latin also borrowed 'car' from Gaulish 'karros'.

I guess what I meant was, it might help to teach the word-bits if one were to put the English word akin to the Latin or Greek in its stead.

"...words starting wh- wr- which are wontless to German..." Not all true. German had 'wr-' words, and many, many 'w' words. Here are some 'wr-' words:

Wrack
Wrangelinsel
wrappen
Wrapstachel
Wrasen

I must say that all of the 'wh' words are borrowed from English, like Whiskey. If one looks in a German/ English woordbook, one would see that the the two tongues have about the same amount of 'w' words.

For what it is worth...

"Can't think of any other sister Germanic languages which can randomly let loose so many w- words in any given everyday sentence as English..."

Wenn wir wiederaufleben, werden wir uns wundern, wie wir ohne dich weitergegangen sind. Wohl bekomm's.

W word-strings are not only able to be done in English.

"Here's one for ya ... luxury - O.Fr. luxurie, from L. luxuria ... Even in Icelandic ... It's luxus."

Instead of L. luxury >> high living, rich living.

"That's a luxurious fabric" >> "That's a rich fabric"

"it might help to teach the word-bits if one were to put the English word akin to the Latin or Greek in its stead." Yes we we do but there are two issues. As a native speaker I learnt "contain" and "contents" from context without knowing or thinking about the wordroots, so wordroots are not always needed for learning. Secondly one had to contend with the sheer non-standardness of English. Eg retain->retention ; contain->containment; contend->contention; maintain-> maintenance; and so on. Likewise endings: no sooner has one said that -ance/ence are (Fr) noun endings than up comes "influence" which is also a verb. It is at best "highly idiomatic", or sometimes "highly idiotic". The other issue is that for non-native speakers we are in fact just concentrating on (highlighting?) the 5000 most common words plus another 2000 most common academic words. This is well below the 15000 plus that a native speaker entering university usually has at their command.

'luxurious'' ...

The first I knew such high life was possible was hanging out at a party bursting with blumpen upper classes dripping in bling. I kid thee not, one goer showed up kitted out in the most blinging fur coat ever seen by mankind...

/the lumpen working classes/

....

the 'blumpen' upper classes'

?

the 'overlumpen' - elites ?

lumpen - (classes)...

the working lumpen, the middle lumpen and the upper lumpen

"As a native speaker I learnt "contain" and "contents" from context without knowing or thinking about the wordroots"

Isn't this the best way to learn a new tongue anyway? Maybe learning word-roots could be helpful in widening and deepening the understanding, once a student can speak basic English.

"contend with the sheer non-standardness of English."

A big problem with English....all the more reason to get rid of Latin and Greek words. Then, we can also change spelling rules! One can dream...

"15000 plus that a native speaker entering university usually has at their command."

15,000 seems rather high. I have ready many University writings, books, dissertations, asf. What percent of the 15,000 are tech/science words? How many are everyday words?

All of the following were screwed up by the sound shift:

retain->retention: Retain should truely be spelled 'reten'

contain->containment: Contain should be spelled 'conten'

maintain-> maintenance: Maintian should be spelled 'mainten'

It would cut down confusion if English went back to these original forms.

INFLUENCE >> L. in + L. fluō; The word we have is do to French spelling corruption of the Latin īnfluēns. The 'fluēns' bit is the present participle of L. fluō. English could solve this problem simply by going back to the original Latin spelling, before the French "influens".

@Stanmund:

How do you mean "lumpen" in your examples? When one talks about a "lumpen group", lumpen is taken to mean "outcast", not classes of people.

In German, "Lumpenproletariat" is a word coined by Karl Marx. He meant it to mean the "trash of all classes", the lowest tier of the proletariat, the "ragamuffins of society".

"Lumpenproletariat" literally means, "Ragged/Raggedy/ Tattered/ Ragtag/ RiffRaff/ Scoundrel Laboring Class" >> G. der Lumpen ("rags") + L. Proletariat ("poor working class/ wage earners/ lower class").

"Nur Lumpen sind bescheiden, Brave freuen sich der Tat." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Anglishers could be called "lumpen linguists".

Instead of L. luxury >> "High on/off the Hog", meaning "affluent and luxurious". A 19th century Americanism.

@jayles:

Hungarian kilincs "door handle" < Old French clinche < Frankish *klinka (cf. Ger. Klinke)

The Franks are everywhere!

Ængelfolc: "Hungarian kilincs "door handle" < Old French clinche < Frankish *klinka"
It is one of the ironies in Hungary; they are taught at school how their forefathers kept up the hungarian language and culture in the face of so much oppression since losing the battle at Mohacs in 1526. Unfortunately it turns out that it's just not true; hungarian is full of borrowings, mainly from turkish, schwab German, and slavic and other uncertain sources. DNA studies have shown that they are indistinguishable from surrounding slav/german people. "We are descended from Arpad, Kuba, Tas et al." is a convenient nationalistic myth. Much as I love hungary, hungarians, and hungarian, I think the constant demands for hungarian autonomy in Slovakia and Serbia, this whole backward-looking focus on Trianon, the situation of the gypsies and the activities of the Jobbik, are undermining the working-together of Europe. We have enough trouble holing Europe and the Euro together as is; and after two massive European wars last century we cannot let Europe fall into some sort of Balkan tragedy again.

Ængelfolc: "15,000 (words) seems rather high." I based this figure on research done at Victoria University by Nation, Vine et al. They also compiled an academic word list used by Oxford University Press on the internet. Quite what counts as a "word" is of course not clear, nor can I remember how they arrived at this figure. Not really worth arguing about, although of course in the USA the count might be lower.......
The high wordcount for native speakers may include all those words one learns at school from reading Shakespeare, Chaucer, GM Hopkins etc. For instance I always remember "Wipfel" from "Ueber allen Gipfeln ist Ruh'" but have never heard the word used..... Nice word, and Bing sang where the treetops glisten, but otherwise hardly key core wordstock; so what all these 15000 words are is a damn good ask, I agree

The high percentage of latin-rooted words does mean that romance language speakers can operate at a fairly advanced level of English in about a quarter of the time it takes someone from SE Asia. English does have its upside, for global communication even if it doesn't make purists happy.

Über allen Gipfeln
Ist Ruh'
In allen Wipfeln
Spürest Du
Kaum einen Hauch;
Die Vögelein schweigen im Walde
Warte nur, balde
Ruhest Du auch.

Still so beautiful; had to post it!

@jayles: "Not really worth arguing about, although of course in the USA the count might be lower....... "

What makes you write this?

Ængelfolc:"...in the USA the count might be lower....... " Not to be taken seriously!!!
It would be surprising indeed if there really were any significant difference for the USA.

Interesting article ... but I've never heard of the so-called American politic phrase. Some of the comments were spot on.

As for the 'W's in German ... just remember that they're pronounced as 'V's ...

No sense in say "unbeseemly" when "unseemly" already exists for inappropriate.

@Stanford ... You should check a dictionary/wordbook before attempting to create word to make sure that it isn't already being used with a different meaning. Lumpen means "boorish" and "stupid".

@AnWulf...."I've never heard of the so-called American politic phrase." What phrase?

"As for the 'W's in German ... just remember that they're pronounced as 'V's ... " I think Stanmund was only talking about the use of the letter, not the way it is said. Although, you are right.

And, the reason W is named "double U" is because it was originally "uu" in Old Ænglisc and Old High German (more commonly so). Old Ænglisc used the rune wynn for a time; the Norman writers gave us the form "W".

"Although, you are right." ->>> You are right, though. (Sie haben doch Recht.)
OMG Y am I so picky???

@jayles: "OMG Y am I so picky???" Sie sind ein Lehrer! Jedenfalls danke für den Tipp. Ich weiß es wirklich zu schätzen.

"You are right, though." >> "Sie haben dennoch recht." (too be picky! LOL).

I was saying that AnWulf was right despite the fact that I thought Stanmund was talking about the use of the letter W instead of the sound. How is "although" wrong here?