“Anglish”

AnWulf: yes - the tricky bit is why "What are you doing this weekend?" asks about plans; and why "What will you do this weekend?" doesn't - it is either rhetorical or awfulizes the outlook.
My vote would be to get rid of "I'm going to" ; it is longwinded (periphrastic) and unneeded in Anglish.

@Jayles ... Here's one for ya.

From a comment on another board: http://realgrammar.posterous.com/subjunctive-JIlhA

The authors of the ‘The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language’ distinguish three types of mandative:

the subjunctive mandative,
the ‘should’ mandative
the covert mandtive.

The examples they give, in order, are:
‘It is essential that he be told immediately’,
‘It is essential that he should be told immediately’
‘It is essential that he is told immediately’.

They comment that the second is more common in British English than in American English.

Crucially, they say ‘they are all similar in meaning to "He must be told immediately." In other words, they do not distinguish, as you do, An Wulf, between a subjunctive order and a non-subjunctive recommendation.

My own view on that is that the force of the mandative depends on the meaning of the verb in the main clause rather than the mood of the verb in the subordinate clause.

My reply:

True that the idea will be conveyed with any of them. But to nit-pick:

‘It is essential that he be told immediately’ - If you said this to me, then I would think that you're giving me your opinion that it is essential but the final decision is mine. Thus the subjunctive.

‘It is essential that he should be told immediately’ - To me this is very awkward ... actually almost contradictory. The "should" really softens it up ... almost to the point that it isn't "essential". It's not likely that I would ever say it this way. In fact, if I were editing somebody's writing, I'd cross the should out.

‘It is essential that he is told immediately’ - With this one, you're telling me that it must be done (essential) and done now. The choice or decision to tell him isn't mine.

AnWulf: I'm with you; the "should" version sounds odd to me despite my Brit childhood.
I love the subjunctive version; it sounds so beautiful to me; but then I love subjunctives in Hungarian, French and German too...
The "past" simple tense in English is identical to past subjunctive (except for "if I were you"), so it either betokens a real event in the past OR an unreal event. Compare:
1) If I have time I will call you. > real ; present/future
2) If I had time I would call you > well it's not going to happen so unreal present/future
3) If I had had time I would have called your > didn't happen > unreal past
so in (2) and (3) "had" and "would" are "subjunctive" betokening a non-event.
That's how I teach it.... because we can then go on to:
"I wish I had time to call you" > but I don't so again "had" (subjunctive" is used
"If only I had time to call you" > same story.
I teach it this way because it makes consistent cohesive sense, whether or not it is etymologically true or not.
"O je, wenn ich nur die Zeit haette, Dich anzurufen"
"Azt ajanlom, hogy idejojjon!"
Bugger the french,,,,

I've just spent a great deal of time trying to come up with something for "suggestion" ... All the choices seem to be Latinates. All the Germanic languages seem to be a variation of forschlagen so Jayles' idea of "forelay" ... I'm guessing from "lay forth" or "put forth" looks good.

OE has a matching meaning for the original meaning of suggestion: "a prompting to evil" and that is "mislar" (Incitement to evil, suggestion, bad teaching). Gespan - prompting; tyhting seems likely.

But I'm open to ... suggestions ...

If I may put an idea forward.....

And I'm open to your input

mislār >> this word meant "suggestion" among several others (fōresetnes, cwyðe, asf.). Good word!

put forth, forward >> suggest (lit. "bring from under" < sub + gerere)

Norwegian and Danish foreslå, Swedish föreslå

fōremearcung "title, chapter"

fōrerīm "prologue"

I did another blog ... "Anglo-Saxon" names for the Modern Military" http://lupussolus.typepad.com/blog/2011/08/anglo-saxon-names-for-the-modern-military.html

For the noun suggestion, there is also tyhting - Persuasion, exhortation, encouragement, incitement, instigation, allurement, suggestion. I'm not sure that calquing German works for this. My "foreslam" or "forslap" ... I guess if I said it enuff times, it might start to make sense. I like forelay ... to lay it out ... or foreput.

Forerim doesn't tell me anything. Foretell is already being used. Foresay would be my next choice. Maybe foretale or foresaga. But prolog is Greek, so I don't have a heartache with that. If I were going to change it, I'd just use the whole Greek word - prologos.

I'm looking for a simple, short replacement for "quote".

@Jayles ... The world input could double up as suggestion. I have a suggestion becomes I have input. The word is already used and fits. I suggest could be "I put in" or "I put forth". Works for me ...

I didn't get a chance to fully read this massive thread, but from the small bit I did get a chance to read so far, I am surprised nobody made the point that to a speaker of German or Dutch, they would understand far more Old English words than we would. Everyone involved in that argument kept acting like English was the only surviving language with Germanic roots. It sounded to me like Douglas was implying that these OE words were dead, when that's simply not true. You can observe these words descendants just fine in other modern Germanic languages.

@yarpdigger ... You can ask Ængelfolc since he is German. But as an English speaker who also knows German, I think both would have an equally hard time. Now if you had said Icelanders, I might have agreed with you. About the time of the Norman Invasion in 1066, the Scandinavian tongues were still mutually understandable ... Likely similar to UK, US, and Aussie ... and Indian ... and black English. I happened across an Icelandic website the other day and found that I could actually understand bits of it. As my knowledge of OE grows, I bet that my understanding of Icelandic will grow a bit too ... without trying. When I get stuck for a word, Icelandic is now the first tongue that I look at.

The thing about Anglish isn't to turn back to OE ... especially not to the grammar frame! For those of us who love words, it's fun. However,there is an earnest side. English has been and still is today discriminated against ... without thought ... by its own speakers. Many good and "fornytlic" (very useful) Anglo-Saxon words were pushed out by not only a snobbish, elitist French-speaking nobility, but those English speakers who, even to this day, treat English as a third-class tongue behind French and Latin ... Maybe fourth-class if you put Greek ahead of English as many did and still do.

An example ... In 1600, William Gilbert, an Englishman struck the word electricity. He knew of about amber. Rather than going to the Anglo-Saxon (OE) word, stær, he when to Latin. Amber in Latin is electrum (from Greek, ήλεκτρο (ilektro)) and then made a Latin word electricus ... badda boom! To be fair to him, scientific texts were usually written in Latin, he probably knew the Latin word or had a Latin wordbook, and it was unlikely that he knew of the OE word. Which highlights the how lowly English was treated.

This comment is already too long but I hope you get the idea. I think I need to write another blog! ... But not tonight.

I put to you to try spending a day in your net cruising to brook (use) as few Latinates as you can ... You'll find it hard.

There! and I thought electricity was named in honor of some Greek princess who helped kill her own mother in an electrifying tale of incest and insecticide....

@Jayles ... It would make a much more entertaining story! But alas, while I do write fiction, sometimes one must just put the dry facts out there.

@Jayles ... It's odd that it is England that has dropped 'gotten' for 'got' and seems to be dropping the subjective more often (and faster) than the US. The good thing about the less use of the subjunctive in English is that it is, more often than not, easier to explain to an outlander because the fremd tung uses it more often!

Spanish drives me nuts because it uses it more often ... the verb itself changes and sometimes a lot ... especially the stem changing verbs.

I only have a few pet peeves and one of them is the incorrect use of the reflexive pronoun when a someone THINKS it is the correct way and is overcorrecting ... Send an email to John or myself ... arggghhhh! I had a director once send out an email that was soooo bad grammatically that I printed it out; corrected it; and took it to his secretary. She shook her head and said she hadn't sent but that he had done it himself. So sad that someone that high up could butcher a simple email so badly.

"Bad writers, and especially scientific, political, and sociological writers, are nearly always haunted by the notion that Latin or Greek words are grander than Saxon ones, and unnecessary words like expedite, ameliorate, predict, extraneous, deracinated, clandestine, subaqueous, and hundreds of others constantly gain ground from their Anglo-Saxon numbers." George Orwell "Politics and the English Language" (1946)

AnWulf: yes Orwell was right. The real question is what to do about it - how to reverse the process. While we tinker here, the rest of the world carries on without us. We may
encourage 1) simpler language in business; 2) children to learn Dutch in school; 3) target the most common latinate words first. Against this, we would need to recognise a) that there is now so much global academic, medical, and technical jargon from latin, it would be hard to shift, and 2) we would need to have ready answers for the gaps, that is, those holes left when we take out common latinate words like "experience".
Nearest standin would be "fare"
For instance: "So how did you fare?" "a well-fared man"
However what about the muddling with "airfare" "affair" "unfair" "market/fair" ???
Or should we take in "experience" as it has become a verb too in English, and as a countable noun means "happening" and uncountably means, well, er, "Erfarhrung" which is where the hole is.
In short no good putting forward getting rid of latinate borrowings if we cannot come up with good well-understood standins; and by well-understood I mean understood by someone who hasn't studied OE first.

@jayles ... We all know that, in truth, we cannot pull out all the Latinates. We're not living on small, iland with a small tale of folks like Iceland. As I said before, I find some Latinates to be "fornytlic" (very useful). My goal isn't to pull them out but to shove them aside.

It is sad that the OE wordstock was shoved to the wayside to make room for the Latinates or Greek-root words. We didn't need 'astronomy' when we already had 'starcraft'. That's an OE word that the folk would probably know. But in the long run, other OE words would need to brought back ... slowly ... but the unbrooked OE wordstock is rich!

In gainsaying (there's an old word still in the wordbook!), yet another inrush (another word in the wordbook) of inkhorn words in the 1800s, William Barnes struck the word 'starlore' for astronomy, 'speechcraft' for grammar, and birdlore for ornithology which all sound OK to me. Sir John Cheke wrote the gospel of Matthew without Latinates. I'm trying to find it. I'd like to read it.

As for experience ... What is experience but skill, knowledge, or wisdom? A bad experience is an ordeal. A good experience could be a bliss. As a verb ... when you experience something, you go thru it; meet it; undergo ... and you learn. And experienced man might be learned or skilled or both!

I found a downloadable copy of Cheke's "Gospel of Matthews", I'v only redd a bit but it is easy to understand once yu ar used to the spelling!

@Ængelfolc ... Yu seem to hav better etymological sources than me ... Here is what I found for "stop":

stop (v.)
O.E. -stoppian (in forstoppian "to stop up, stifle"), along with M.L.G. stoppen, O.H.G. stopfon (Ger. stopfen) a W.Gmc. borrowing from V.L. *stuppare "to stop or stuff with tow or oakum" (cf. It. stoppare, Fr. étouper "to stop with tow"), from L. stuppa "coarse part of flax, tow." Plugs made of tow were used from ancient times in Rhine valley.

BTW, stopfon is listed as the root word for "stuff" (German Stoff) which comes to English thru French ... It may have entered French thru stopfon ... but then the source puts stopfon as from vulgar Latin.

***Now I would think that vulgar Latin along the Rhine would betoken that the Romans picked it up from the Teutons/Germans rather than the Germans picked it up from the Romans.

Similar with the meaning of "tale" as number (German Zahl; OE tæl).

But yet, under tally, there is this: mid-15c., "stick marked with notches to indicate amount owed or paid," from Anglo-Fr. tallie (early 14c.), Anglo-L. talea (late 12c.), from M.L. tallia, from L. talea "a cutting, rod, stick"

The Anglo-L in the late 12c is clearly post-Norman yet "tæl" shows up in several kennings in OE so it had to be there pre-Norman and it isn't listed as Latin in the sources that I'v read. The Anglo-Saxons came after the Romans left Britain ... so who took it from whom? What is the root of Zahl? If you have a source I'll pass it along.

Wanted: teacher with minimum ten years' industry ordeal..
Wanted: teacher with at least ten years' craft skill
Wanted: teacher with more than ten years' wisdo

Wanted teacher with at least ten years' experience..
The previous ones don't make sense

Wanted: teacher with a background of at least ten years ...

Or, if you'r willing to accept the Greek root of history ... with a history of at least ten years.

I have a background in accounting and software; this is quite different from my teaching experience. Everyone has a background - it includes being raised in the Bronx or wherever, your education and so on. Even saying "teaching background" is not quite the same as teaching experience; the meaning do overlap but not 100%. And therein lies the rub. (Hamlet!). Another example I had today was "extinct" "extinction" but the verb is "die out"; one might say "dying out" for the noun but there is no real English adjective which matches extinct. Looking back thru this thread there are few "Grade I " matches; most are "Grade II" overlapping but not 100%.However there is hope: when I started teaching everyone talked about "vocabulary" but about ten years ago suddenly the jargon "in" word became "lexis" (Gk="word") - why I don't know, perhaps because someone wanted to promote the "lexical method". Anyway what is does mean is that academics (at least) can start and push change through. Now we have a new word "wordstock" that I would describe as "Grade III" that is it is understandable but not in the dictionary yet, but change is at least do-able, the real ask is what, when, and how much?
predict >>> forecast (Grade I) ?
prophesy >>> foretell (Grade II)
information >>> tidings (grade II)
experience >>> afaring (Grade IV) !!!

Wanted: teacher with ten years' jobfare.
Wanted: captain with ten years' seafaring as deck officer.
Understandable? Clear? precise? ???

@jayles: "Looking back thru this thread there are few "Grade I " matches; most are "Grade II" overlapping but not 100%."

Do you think that the grading tiers have something to do with how a words meaning has shifted throughout its use in a tongue? In German, we say "ausgestorben", which means 'extinct' (lit. 'died out'). How could that not become an adjective? >> "The died-out Do Do Bird". Why couldn't it work?

predict >>> bespeak; bode; foretell; foreshadow; forebode; foresee; forespeak; forecast; soothsay, asf.
prophesy >>> forecast; foresee; foretell; forewarn; soothsay
information >>> knowledge; news. I like the word "tidings" >> What tidings do you bring?
experience >>> worldliness; doing

Take heed that we say these words every day, so they are well-known and well-worn.

Wanted: teacher with at least ten years' teaching.
Wanted: teacher with at least ten years' doing the job.
Wanted: teacher with more than ten years' on the job.
Wanted: teacher with more than ten years' teaching.
Wanted: teacher with at least/more than ten years' time teaching.

Experience >>> O.E. Gewissung

Sorry!

experience >> O.E. andwīsnes
information >> O.E. gewissung

@AnWulf: "What is the root of Zahl?"

The root of Zahl > "English etymology: a select glossary serving as an introduction to the Histroy of the English Language" by Friedrich Kluge and Frederick Lutz

"And some grow rich by telling lies, and some by telling money."

If one doesn't understand, think of a 'bank teller' (one who tells (counts) money in a bank). Do votes in Parliament still get told (counted) in Britain?

TELL has two meanings, but TALLY is, to my knowledge, from Latin-French < Latin. Fr. taillé (pp. of tailler) accounts for the 'y' ending in English. I have not come across a Teutonic link as of yet.

Stop, Stuff

Also, see >> The Rhine Franconian element in old French by Paul W. Brosman, Jr., pg. 72

@Jayles ... I see what you're saying ... but I'm not sure if that nuance is really there.

I looked at an online thesaurus:
background: experience, accomplishments, history, education, qualification, asf
experience: background, accomplishments, history, education, training, asf

I think that the rub is that often background and experience are qualified by work or education ... The frain, "What is your experience in computing" could cover anything from self-taught to university to work. OTOH, if I ask what is your work experience then it is narrowed. I can also ask what is your work background with computers ... or your education background. If you don't put the qualifier, which is a good way to be ambiguous, then it's open to interpretation. I have a background in aerospace ... Does that mean that I have work experience? A degree? Or that I'm a self-taught space nut? It's open!

But if you want to strike afaring as a new word to give that little bit of unlikeness, I'm ok with that!

An extinct species ... A lost species; wiped out species, dead species, fallen species, doused species, offed, forgone.

The dinosaurs are a dead sett/group/kind that were wiped out by a spacerock! (Or rumerock, rumestone).
It is a dead volcano ... lifeless volcano.

That's a gripping scale that you have there!

@Ængelfolc ... Thanks for the info. Since I'm living as an expat, I can't go to a local library to find an etymological source. It's either online or nothing for me! lol

First I saw stuff being related to stop and then stop was credited as having come from vulgate Latin probably from along the Rhine ... I thought to myself, that can't be right!

As for tally ... I thought it was a natural to go from OE tæl to tally ... tal+ly ... the source was kind of murky and I think I misread it since it mentioned Anglo-Latin talea 12c. I still think they're related since the Frankish would have have something like tal for number and it would have been known in Old French. Zahl, tal, tæl ... But then tallier supposedly comes from talea. Why not from PGmc tala? I can't say and it just may be coincidence.

@jayles

The word 'wordstock' isn't very new. I found it brooked on blog back in 2006 ... If I tried, I could likely find it being brooked earlier. As a teacher, maybe you should take Wordstock for Teachers! http://www.wordstockfestival.com/education/workstock-for-teachers/

Yes the point about a thesaurus is it does not provide words which are a 100% match; it just provides words that have some overlap in meaning and/or usage, so we can't just use words from a thesaurus as stand-ins willy-nilly. Most words in a Thesaurus are a grade II match only. It's much the same when translating to a foreign tongue; the words just don't match up 100%. For example "wiped out" is not exactly the same as "died out" because it introduces the idea of someone or something killing them. To provide a more homely example: were native american bison almost wiped out or almost died out??

Ængelfolc: "In German, we say "ausgestorben", which means 'extinct' (lit. 'died out'). How could that not become an adjective? >> die out is intransitive so we cannot make up an adjective from the past participle in English, as the past participle is essentially passive in meaning which presupposes a transitive verb. There are one or two verbs such as drink >> drunken; shrink>>> shrunken which have a special form for the adjective even though the original verb has no object.

This: "a given name"

@jayles:"were native american bison almost wiped out or almost died out??"

Trade with the Europeans nearly wiped out the American Buffalo (Bison). It has been estimated that American Indians were eating only four out of every 100 bison they killed. The rest was sold as buffalo robes, coats, meat, asf. Of course, they almost died out, too.

@jayles: "we cannot make up an adjective from the past participle in English... There are one or two verbs...have a special form for the adjective even though the original verb has no object."

Why can't the rules be changed? ;-)

@jayles: "we cannot make up an adjective from the past participle in English... There are one or two verbs...have a special form for the adjective even though the original verb has no object."

Why can't the rules be changed? ;-)

AEngelfolc: There are no rules; it's just a description of what happens. I do try to teach students how to write "normal" English but trying to explain why you can say "the risen Christ"; a "stricken" man; "an unexploded bomb" but not "a decided question"; "a happened accident". It's not too bad for Europeans but students from SE Asia often come up with the weirdest "English". The essential point is to be aware that "to increase" either means to become bigger or to make something bigger - that is rise or raise. As you must already know Hungarian is very picky with regard to transitive and intransitive verbs for instance keszul / keszit and often adds the causitive tat/tet suffix. English does neither except for rise/raise; fall/fell; lie/lay; sit/set and ???
I end up saying "you cannot use a passive unless the verb is transitive" , which is not quite true as there are a few verbs in English which break this "rule"; but students need some guideline to help them root out the mistakes.
Quite frankly, in my experience (!!!!) it is rare for people from SE Asia to write sound English unless they have been brought up on it from an early age; the languages and way of thinking are so different.

Or maybe I'm just a poor teacher!!

I gave you the option of wiped out because I didn't know if you wanted to be clear-cut. Otherwise use 'dead'. The word 'extinct' doesn't tell us how the species died ... whether natural or by man or by accident ... just that it no longer is. In that case, it is a dead species.

No doubt that there are Latinates that are clearer and likely would have been borrowed. Just as English as taken in Scandinavian and Dutch words ... like trip. Some of the Germanic words made there way to English thru France like 'drug' likely because of the intense relationship between England and France after the Conquest.

Gotta get moving for the day but I'll leave with a series of kennings from OE that will have to be left in the dustbin.

leecher - docter
leechbook - book of prescriptions
leechcraft - practice of medicine
leechcraftig - skilled in medicine
leechchest - medicine box
leechfee - doctoer's fee ... OK, maybe we can keep that one and apply it lawyers as well! lol
leechhouse - hospital
leechwort - medicinal herb, drug

@AnWulf:

If "Leech" would be brought back into the wordstock to mean "doctor", it should probably be spelled the OE way >> lǣce (lœce) or lȳce (ȳ = ü), cf. Old Saxon lāki, Old High German lāhhi, Gothic lēkeis, Old Norse lǣknir.

The "bloodsucking worm" meaning of lǣce is from before the year 900; The "doctor, physician" meaning is from the mid 11 hundreds.

The medical sense is from " [one who] draws blood, or is skilled at 'bleeding' patients", which was a common medical technique using leeches.

The other less common O.E. word for 'doctor' was lācnystre, which only has been found once in an O.E. glossary, and only one time in a written work.

@jayles: "...but not "a decided question"; "a happened accident"."

These are understandable...it might sound a little awkward...it is said that a "question has already been decided upon"...why not make it shorter? >> that question has been decided >> that is a decided question.

Alphabet = O.E. ābēcēdē (lit. saying the 1st four letters), stæfrǣw(e), stæfrōf "letter set".

Ængelfolc: yes "decided" can take an object so it is okay; I would suggest "an already-decided question" or "a yet-to-be-decided question" would make more sense though.
I googled "happened accident" and all I got was some Chinese chappie whose English needs a brush-up. Secondly "It might sound a little awkward" - that is the point - it is not normal English nor should it be. I am shielding English from outlandish inflows.

I think healer would be a good word for physician. Leech made it into ME as leche with the meaning of physican. OE lâcnian - to heal, cure, treat, look after; lacnung - healing, cure: medicament, remedy; lacnigendlic - surgical. Still, the best word is healer I think ... It could be used by a physician as well as a shaman!

I've hit a couple of tuffies ... OK ... I'm looking for an OE ... or even a non-Latinate Middle English word for "trait" or "feature" ... As in, "His height, his strength, and his wit are traits wanted by many."

I've found nothing in OE; I found "alit' in Old Norse for feature; I found "trekk" and "trekket" in nowadays Norwegian for trait and "trek" in Dutch (meaning feature).

Trait is from Latin tractus ... the same root for "tract" (OE traht). I'm about to give up and accept it since it shares a root a pre-conquest Latinate or use "trekk" ... I like the extra k to make it unlike "trek" which is used for a hard trip.

I've thought about making a noun from hligan (to attribute to) ... that would kind of go with "alit" from ON.

---

The next one is 'communications' ... as in 'He is the communications officer.' Only Icelandic has a different word than a form of communication: samskipti which is similar to OE samodspræc.

Samod is an OE adverb and forefast (prefix) meaning 'at the same time' (simultaneously) also seen as sama and samo. A good forefast to bring back!

samodgang = continuous; communication between rooms (an open door?).

Update spræc to sprac or speak; thus a nowadays turning/writing of it could be:

samespeak (don't like), samespeaking, samodspeak, samodspeaking, samodsprac, samodsprak, samsprack, samsprek, samsprec ... I like the last two but I think that's my knowledge of German seeping thru.

Maybe thruspeak or thruhspeak ... thrutalk ... to speak thru or talk thru?

@jayles: "I am shielding English from outlandish inflows."

LOL...ROFLMAO! >> how's that for "outlandish inflows" from the Technology Age that have sickened English!

I have read that in in South-West Lincolnshire, England, the folks say things like, "He has happened a bad accident" (A bad accident happened to him); "He happened a misfortune last back-end." Sounds awkward to me, too.

Also, while looking this up, I found a word to put in stead of "occur": Hap!

"Karma is a theory of causation: because this happed that happened."

"What accident hath happed Hieronimo?"

It's great, since it can be used with "happen". As for "happened accident", I guess you are right. Although it would be good to have something like this to mean "an accident that had already happed." Maybe a "happed accident". I am for getting rid of "accident" altogether, and simply saying "mishap".

If you want your head to spin ... just go to wordbook websites and see the "word of the day". You get stuff like "garçonnière" which means "a bachelor pad" I submitted to wikitionary "lightfast" as a WOTD. It's in the wordbook and means "resistant to fading".

I can't think a bysel where I would brook hap (v) instead of happen. I'm trying to think of when I would use hap instead of luck. I'm pretty tired right now so I'm just not getting anything.

I have found some interesting words the past few days while digging around.

If you need a word for pierce that is still in the wordbook, try "thirl", I like the ME spelling of thurl ... þurl better, but thirl is still in the wordbook. Frith still in the M-W wordbook to not in the meaning of peace. Many words are still there ... They just need to be brooked and brought back to life.

Anwulf: I think you can keep "trait" as long as you pronounce the final "t" !!

@Jayles ... Does that mean that I can keep rendezvous as long as I pronounce the final 's'? LOL ... Like Illinoizzzz.

AnWulf: Oh dear, opening up such a great can of worms! I meant that since "trait" is an old Norman-french word, short and long established in English we could/should just keep it. It is nonsense to be 100% purist; no language is. It is a matter of keeping the borrowings within reasonable bounds.
"rendezvous" could obviously well be "rendered" as "meetup" or something more English.
No-one has yet put forward changing place names as part of the framework for Anglish!

AnWulf: "He is the communications officer." There are of course two words already in anglish for "communications": commonspeak and commonmakings, both usually shortened to "comms" so "He is a comms headtrooper" QED!

@jayles >> "It is nonsense to be 100% purist; no language is. It is a matter of keeping the borrowings within reasonable bounds."

YES! Although it's not Norman...the word "trait" came into English about the end of the 1400's. Trait < Mid.Fr. trai(c)t(s)--- (pp. of F. traire) < L. tactus < L. trahere "to pull, draw, drag, or move out".

Words from the same Latin root are > treat, tract, trace (pl. of trait, 'trais'), tractor, attract, contract, subtract, portrait (F. 'trait-pour-trait'), asf.

Funny, French "cheval de trait" = English "draught-horse". So, why not neatly English trait by "calquing" it?

AnWulf: "If you need a word for pierce that is still in the wordbook, try "thirl", I like the ME spelling of thurl ... þurl better, but thirl is still in the wordbook. "

Yeah, "thirl" is used everyday in the word NOSTRIL (nos(u) + thyrel = nose hole)!

LOL! ;-)

rendezvous >> F. (lit. present yourselves) >> Anglo-French could be "render yourselves" >> English "show yourselves"...literally, of course.

meet-up, get together, hangout, forgather, tryst (O.N. treysta, traust), asf.

Garçonnière: F. garçon "boy, servant, waiter" (oblique form of gars (12.c) "lad, boy") < Old French garçun< VL (g)w(a)racio(n) < Frankish *warkkjo, *wrakkjo(n) + -ière (fem. suffix meaning 'location')

@AnWulf: "His height, his strength, and his wit are traits wanted by many."

Old English has 'mearcung' which means "characteristic". Feature and Trait fit in with 'characteristic'. We could get rid of these words that are needless and overmuch > quality, feature, characteristic, trait, attribute, property, and sign. Maybe others, too!

Teutonic words are sharper in meaning. A "man of mark" is a man of worthy, noble character.

"His height, his strength, and his wit are marks wanted by many."

"Body thirlings by skilled craftsman: ear- nose- tongue- and belly-thirling and tattooing".
Harold looked up, only to have an arrow thirl his left eye; "should have seen that coming"
he thought dolefully.

"There is more to the craft of body-thirling than meets the eye"

Something out of left field....

Þuma (thumb), scytelfinger (index finger, lit. wagging finger), middelfinger (middle finger), lǽcefinger (ring finger, lit. leech finger--how seemly!), eárefinger (little finger, pinky, lit. ear finger)

@AnWulf: "Only Icelandic has a different word than a form of communication"

How do you mean "communication"? In German, we have a lot of ways to say and to mean this.

Some Ænglisc Grammar Names

noun >> nama
plural >> manigfeald
perfect aspect >> fullfremend
adverb >> biword
vowel >> selfswegend, clipiende stǽf
accusative >> wregendlic
case >> geendung

yes some languages (I think Portuguese off the cuff) have the same word for noun as name, which I guess is good enough. "manifold" for plural is sort of workable, just it is also part of the exhaust system of a piston engine. "byword" already exists with a a fully other meaning so I am not sure whether the two could co-exist without muddling. Perhaps "selfsound" for vowel? And verb ??? we do say "action word"; "doing word" is to "vague" / unclear I think.

The snag with "commonspeak" is that "common" is a Latinate.

OE has several words for common but none truthfully lived thru aside from "churl" whose meaning has changed and not for the good. In OE, churlfolk (georlfolc) meant the 'common people, the public'.

Gemene (gemæne) lived thru to ME as i-mene which would likely be amen(e) (i-mid became amid and i-mong become among). Gemana was society.

There was 'mana' - community (gemana was society); to-manan - in common which lived thru to ME as 'mone' and 'y-mone' - share, companion, company. However, anything with "man" or "men" in it becomes fodder for "political correctness".

Samodeard and samodwist both had a meaning of 'common existence'.

So I come full-ring ... to samodspeak ... samodsprak ... samodspreck.

mark = trait? Maybe ... But a "marked man" is usually a condemned or targeted man.

Back to thirl ... I like thurl because that's the way I say it and there is no muddling with thrill (same root). Yes, nostril is a kenning of nose+thirl with the i and r swapping places. It's a wonder that someone didn't swap it with a Latinate!

@Ængelfolc ... communications in German is Kommunikation and maybe Nachrichtenwesen. I know that Nachrichten is news ... wesen is the essence or being or nature. Maybe it is because of the inflow of English but communications with a 'k' seems to be common thru-out Scandinavia as well aside from Iceland.

The index finger is also known as the forefinger ... pinky is from Dutch.

I have a whole list of OE grammar words. Not many of them make any more sense than the Latinates ... maybe because many (not all) came in from Latin pre-1066.

For singular - anfald (onefold) is good. I'd keep the OE anfald for grammar maybe even for "single" ... She is an anfald woman ... lol ... you can see where "an" came from. (OE, in the beginning, didn't have articles). Make it a kenning ... anfaldwoman and anfaldman (bachelor). So now my bachelor's pad is an "anfaldmanpad" LOL ... Getting to be like German and stringing the words together!

Plural ... manigfeald (manyfold to make it unlike manifold?) ...

For the shortenings ... 'an' for anfeld and 'mn' for manyfold or 'mg' from manigfeald? Or take the first and last staff ... 'ad' for anfeld (might be muddled with 'ad' from Latin) and 'md' for manyfold.

Things up in the air:

Which word to use for example:
bisen (bysen), verb bisenian > ME bisne (example, parable), verb bisenen - to give an example, MD; bisend, pp. likened, signified

Could be muddled with: Bi-sen, v. to look, to behold, consider, to arrange, appoint, to manage, MD, S; besie, S; biseo, S2; bisið, pr. s., S; bise, imp., W; byse, S2; biseh, pt. s., S; bisay, S2; beseyn, pp. arranged; beseyne, decked; besene, equipped, S3; biseye, as in phr. yuel biseye, ill to look at, C2, richely biseye, splendid in appearance, C2.—AS. biséon, to look about.

Or

bispell also bigspell (example, proverb) bispellboc (big-) - Book of Proverbs > ME bi-spel - parable tho it is listed from OE bigspell (parable) > make it nowadays byspel (like German Beispiel) ... I like this one because of that even tho bisen seems to be a better fit.

Or

forebysen (model, example, pattern) - German Vorbild? Which would make bisen/bysen like Bild.

I lean to byspel for example and bisen for mode, pattern, form with forebysen being a modal.

"instance" although perhaps taken from latin has the same roots as "In" and "stand"

I found byspel with one of the meanings being "example" in an online dictionary ... I'm good to go! http://englishdictionaryonline.co/search/byspel

In this instance, 'instance' is one of those false friends ... While it may share the PIE with stand, it is Latin while stand is Germanic ... and this likely led to muddling the use of the words and meanings.

instance - mid-14c., "urgency" from O.Fr. instance "eagerness, anxiety, solicitation" from L. instantia "presence, earnestness, urgency" lit. "a standing near" from instans (see instant).

In Scholastic logic, "a fact or example" (early 15c.), from M.L. instantia, used to translate Gk. enstasis. This led to use in phrase for instance "as an example" (1650s), and the noun phrase to give (someone) a for instance (1959, Amer.Eng.).

Whereas stand - O.E. standan from P.Gmc. *sta-n-d- (cf. O.N. standa, O.S., Goth. standan, O.H.G. stantan, Swed. stå, Du. staan, Ger. stehen), from PIE base *sta- "to stand" (L. stare "stand").

@jayles >>> the Old English grammar names are the true names that were used in Old English!!!! I did not make them up. What this means is that the Latin names were NOT needed.

@jayles: "I am not sure whether the two could co-exist without muddling."

Doesn't English already have a lot of this anyway??!! I give you SOUND >>>

>>> sound (mechanical wave,noise), sound (free from harm), sound (adv. deeply, thoroughly "sound asleep"), sound (v. to measure depth of water, hole, asf.), sound (to seek indirect feedback, "Why not sound him out about working for us?"), sound (n. a relatively narrow passage of water between larger bodies of water or between the mainland and an island)...and so forth and so on.

There are about twenty meanings for "sound" with the same spelling, but unlike parts of speech.

It seems to me "biword" would be fine next to "byword", especially if the "i" was keep in the word meaning adverb.

My 2 Marks! Nix fuer ungut!!!

@AnWulf: "communications in German is Kommunikation and maybe Nachrichtenwesen."

Yes, we do say "Kommunikationen", but also it depends on what one wants to say:

> telecommunications : das Fernmeldewesen
> communications network: das Nachrichtennetz
> radio communications: der Funkverkehr, das Funkwesen
> communication: die Mitteilung , der Austausch (of data), die Meldung, die Verbindung, die Vermittlung

And many, many others. Kommunikation is a business word that came likely from English,

"mark = trait? Maybe ... But a "marked man" is usually a condemned or targeted man."

One word can have many meanings, right? A "marked many" means something else than " the mark of a man", " a man of marks", "mark of the beast", "he gets good marks in school", asf. One could always say "worthy-marks", or something to make it more understandable.

@AnWulf:

I like bīspell >>> maybe write it byspell today. It wouldn't be that much of a stretch, since "gospel" is from O.E. godspel

SAMOD would help to give English a bunch of words back, if it could be brought back in to the mainstream.

samodswēġend "consonant, consonant sound"
samodsprǣċ "colloquy, conversation, conference"
samodwyrcende "cooperating"

SAMOD and SAME have like roots and are akin to each other.

churl = karl, kerl, ċeorl(e), kerel, karel, Polish Król, Hungarian kiraly, Czech kral, Charles, asf.

Rígsþula >> talks about the three sons of Ríg: Þræl, Karl and Jarl. This is a Germanic tale about class rank/standing.

Carlton and Charlton < both mean "the farm of the churls"

churl >> a freeman, under a þegn, but above a thrall. He was still a peasant, though.

Peasant is one Latinate that isn't used very much in the US, in fact, it may have been one of the first politically incorrect terms that is still steered away from. While "sharecropper" may fit within the wordbook meaning of "peasant", we would never call a sharecropper a peasant unless we wanted to be insulting. Peasant has a much darker feel to it in the US ... and just isn't used. Does being unrich make one a "peasant"? I don't think so but I think that in pre-1066 England, it would make you a churl ... and it wasn't insulting as it is now. That's just my guess.

And don't forget that between a churl and a thrall was a theow! Often the brook of thrall and theow seem to overlap.

What can one say about the grammar words. OE had grammaticcræft as well as stæfcræft (grammar).

As for mark ... at times it fits ... but the "mark of the beast" is a bad thing! Being a "marked man" is not a good thing. Getting good marks in school doesn't bestow a trait on a person. We don't say "trait of the beast" nor a "traited man" ... I'll have to try it for a few days and see how I feel about it.

Side mark here ... you like the word "hap" ... It still lives hapless, happy, and perhaps! I guess that makes "perhaps" 1/2 Latinate! lol ... forhaps?

I think I'll go with "thane" in place of a military officer. It think it fits. I just don't thane would be applied broadly like "soldier" is today. A thane would be above the enlisted ranks. Maybe the NCOs (non-commissioned officers - sergeants) would be under-thanes? Or keep the Latinate forefast and call them sub-thanes. So a communications officer could be a "samodsprec thane". That would need a gloss. I don't think that would be forthwith(ly) understood.

"perhaps! I guess that makes "perhaps" 1/2 Latinate! lol ... forhaps?"

Maybe also "byhaps"... L. per >> for, by, through. I can hear folks in the Southern U.S. saying "ferhaps" with a Southern drawl, and the British saying "foh-haps".

"As for mark ... at times it fits ... but the "mark of the beast" is a bad thing! Being a "marked man" is not a good thing. Getting good marks in school doesn't bestow a trait on a person. We don't say "trait of the beast" nor a "traited man" ... "

That is not the point, is it? Look at my byspel, "SOUND". One word, spelled the same in each way, but meaning something else. It is not common either to say "a trait of a pen", although it has that use. There are more than forty (40) different ways and meanings for MARK, which include

* an object or end desired or striven for; goal.
* a distinctive trait or characteristic: "the usual marks of a gentleman".
* distinction or importance; repute; note: "a man of mark"
* a recognized or required standard of quality, accomplishment, etc.; norm: "His dissertation was below the mark".
* a sign, token, or indication: to bow as a mark of respect.
* to be a distinguishing feature of: "a day marked by rain".

Mark is what was said in Old English for "characteristic". I think it fitting.

My 2 Marks. MfG.

OE thēow (cf. OHG dionōn, dionēn, G. diener) and O.E. þræl (from O.N. þræll; cf. Danish træl, Swedish träl; also, "enthrall") are slaves, bondsmen, servants with a Lord. A "churl" was a freeman--the lowest ranked freeman.

There is a big step between these ranks. Here is good writ about this: http://www.regia.org/Saxons1.htm

Cheers!

The reason I dither about brooking "mark" for "trait" is that I don't want to swap a word that a sharp meaning to one that has many meanings. The goal, in my eyes, is to find a word to swap but, samod (ly?), not make things worse. I'd rather either bring in a word from another Germanic tung ... like trekk or trekklet ... or even brook the raw OE word mercung (merkung?) than brook a word like "mark" that already is heavily brooked. Doublets (twofolden, twofoldel, twofoldle, or brook the Fr/Lat afterfast ... let ... twofoldlet?) have been known to happen so having two words from the same root is ok.

I went back to work on a yetheude from English to Saxon and saw that I had brooked "sprecung" for communications ... Since the c has changed to k, that would now be "sprekung" ... sprekung thane for communications officer? Still needs a gloss!

Interesting writ but it didn't moot thralls. What we must recall (edcall?) is that not all Saxons lived the same way with the same laws. My guess is that theow and thrall could have been swapped depending on where and when it was brooked. It seems to me that, from the meanings, that theow (servant ... bonded slave) would have been a bit higher than a thrall (serf, servant, slave) if they were ever brooked at the same time! I'm thinking that I can update theow a bit and use it in place of a gov't official.

I was taken back a bit that the writ spelled kotsetla with a k instead of the OE c ... but then, it is a Latinate otherwise I'd try to fit it the campdom's (military's) frame.

To get your blood heated up ... here is a post "100 Beautiful and Ugly Words" http://www.dailywritingtips.com/100-beautiful-and-ugly-words/

From the post:
Notice how often attractive words present themselves to define other beautiful ones, and note also how many of them are interrelated, and what kind of sensations, impressions, and emotions they have in common. Also, try enunciating beautiful words as if they were ugly, or vice versa. Are their sounds suggestive of their quality, or does their meaning wholly determine their effect on us?

From another post:
Renaissance scholars adopted a liberal attitude to language. They borrowed Latin words through French, or Latin words direct; Greek words through Latin, or Greek words direct. Latin was no longer limited to Church Latin: it embraced all Classical Latin. For a time the whole Latin lexicon became potentially English. ...

Another outcome of the Norman Conquest was to change the writing of English from the clear and easily readable insular hand of Irish origin to the delicate Carolingian script then in use on the Continent. With the change in appearance came a change in spelling. ...

With the restoration of the monarchy in 1660, writers again looked to France. John Dryden admired the Académie Française and greatly deplored that the English had “not so much as a tolerable dictionary, or a grammar; so that our language is in a manner barbarous” as compared with elegant French. ... http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/188048/English-language/74803/Affixation

Since we're starting a new month ... September, what a boring name! and misleading since it means, in Latin, the seventh month ... Time for English to bring back the old names ... there were two for September:

Hálig-mónaþ (Holy Month) or Hærfest-mónaþ (Harvest Month)

Wes þu hal!

Or, we could calque the boring Latin >>> seofoþa-mónaþ

;-)

When I went to skule we called it "the old stone age" "middle stone age" and so on..
Now of course they call it 'Kneolithic" "Mesolithic" "Paleolithic". That's much simpler once you know "meso" as is Mesopotamia means middel and "paleo" means old and "on" of course is NOT the A-saxon meaning..... All so unnecessary...... but if you remember that Hippopotamus is a river-horse then of course mesopotamia is the land between two rivers...... Perhaps the real question is why learn English in the first place if we are all going to speak greek anyway. Teaching Greek first might bring a muchneeded boost to their faltering oikonomia....

Sometimes it seems as if "academic" means using non-English words for no good reason but snobbery; such as "emphasize" for "spotlight"...... It does make teaching English larfabel and the teacher a laughing-stock when all we do is teach greek or latin roots. Much better if we were blithe, lithe, (or lissom) and blithely unaware of "oncology", "ontology" and paleo-whatever-it-is; all this greek stuff pales, palls. LIfe is too short to be snobbish.

It's pretty easy to teach the word ontology; begin with einai (to be) in greek and set out the endings for the gerund or whatever. This may leave you short on time for dealing with English grammar but that's not far-reaching stuff. The other thing is in bringing words over from "classical" languages the roots are often muddled for instance "expose" "exposition" "exposure" ....

May I put forward that we build month names akin to Czech? (see Wikipedia:)
* January -- leden (from led, ice) >>> ICEMONTH
* February -- únor (probably from the word root -nor-, infinitive form nořit (se), to plunge, to welter, as the ice welters under the lake surface) >>> MELTMONTH
* March -- březen (either from bříza, birch, or from březí, with young etc., as the forest animals, mainly hares and rabbits, are pregnant at that time) MATINGMONTH
* April -- duben (derived from dub, oak) ???
* May -- květen (from květ, blossom) >>>>BLOSSOMMONTH
* June -- červen (either from červený, red, or from červ, worm, both related to fruit) FRUITMONTH
* July -- červenec (the same as červen with a comparative (more) component) RIPENINGMONTH
* August -- srpen (from srp, sickle) SICKLEMONTH
* September -- září (lit. "it shines", but most likely from říje (rutting), the time when the - mainly deer - males want to couple) RUTTINGMONTH
* October -- říjen (from říje, see September)
* November -- listopad (literally "leaf-fall") LEAFFALLMONTH
* December -- prosinec (either from prosit to beg, to ask, to plead, but more probably from prase, pig, because hogroasts are common at that time) HOGROASTMONTH

just a few idle thoughts.

@Jayles ... LOL ... You're right. A few fremd words add a "blowing stench" (flavor) ... but when half your tung has fremd roots? I think that so many Latinates are so far from from their roots that a Roman wouldn't know them! Would he look at "flavor" and know what it means from a blend of Latin flatus ‘blowing’ and foetor ‘stench’ ... and that it means "taste"? Unlikely! ... But then they had a word for taste "gustus" the root of gusto! That's worse than going to Germany and hearing "handy" and it's a cellphone ... at least that does make some sense. But then cell+phone (storeroom-sound?) ... a Lat-Gr half-bred ... It can make one crazy!

At least most of the Greek roots are still known again (recognizable) by Greeks tho maybe not for how it is being brooked from the root:
amber ήλεκτρο
electron ηλεκτρόνιο
electricity ηλεκτρικής ενέργειας (energy)

But what happened to all the Saxon words for things like the broad meaning of "art" or the narrow meaning of "clitoris" or "estrus"? Sometimes while digging thru ... I find a jest (jewel) or two. You have to love "lustgryn" ... which would be spelled "lustgrin" today ... Then if you dig and find that grin has two roots ... one which means "snare, trap" ... and thus lustgrin is the "snare of pleasure"! Gee ... I wonder what the scop (poet) was thinking about.

I'v made a list of words that are still here ... hidden down deep in the wordbook ... that I will post to my blog later. A few like scop and rekels (incense, from OE recels) could use a spelling change (resting on how you say it ... either skop or shope ... I like skop ... Rekels is said like reekels and that would also show its roots ... reek).

I'm alreddy too long here. But as to your rimbook or rimebook (calendar) names for the months, what if you live in the southern halfworld? Then they would be backwards! I guess we'll either have to find more obscure names or just use numbers ... I vote we use Greek numbers this time around! lol

@jayes >>> remember Chaucer's "evil concupiscence"? I found the Old English for that..."yfel lustgeornnes". FYI.

Angelfolc: so "geornnes" means "earnest" or horniness??

"The neolithic revolution had important consequences" >>
"The new stone age upheaval had far-reaching follow-ons" (or "flow-ons")
???

@jayles:

yfelgeornnes >> evil, wickedness

wífgeornness >> incontinence

O.E. ġeorn (*gernaz; cf. OHG gerno, Ger. gern) > eager for, desirous of something; anxious, ardent, zealous, studious, intent, careful, diligent, importunate.

Truly, O.E. ġeorn >> Eng. yearn. So, in today's English, it would be "evil yearnings".

Aengelfolc: "incontinence" in modern usage usually refers to the inability to control one's urinary/bladder function, most often found amongst the elderly. You can get nappies for it.
"Evil lust-yearnings" I still remember from my youth.....

@jayles: "incontinence"

I know...but this is what the Anglo-Saxons called it.

Aengelfolc: the word "empirical" came up again and I was wondering what the connection with "empire" was..... of course there is none. We could calque German with "experience-based" (which would be more consistent) but still not "real" English. And then there's "empiricism"...
BTW earlier you put forward "angewandt" for practical: it seems to me this really means "applied" in modern English. In which of the following could one use "angewandt" without changing the meaning, please??? I think only D or E. ???

(A) sie hat einen praktischen Verstand she's practically minded
(B) praktischer Arzt general practitioner
(C) praktisches Jahr practical year
(D) praktische Ausbildung practical or in-job training
(E) praktisches Beispiel concrete example

"inherently" .... well of course this means "per se" or "by its very nature"... but in "real" English just "of itself" is hardly enough; so what could we use instead of "nature" to make the true meaning clearer? ... "by its very ilk" ????

Anwulf: You are right about being downunder; the peach-blossom is out right now but we could hardly call it "harvest month", so "the ninth month" would do fine. And February??
"Expressing the idea of second ...... there wasn’t a word that could easily be adapted. Old English fell back on other, ...... . " (C) Michael Quinion So are we doomed to use "second" faute de mieux???

@jayles:

ANGEWANDT can be translated as functional, applied, deployed, to make use of, practical (sense of useful "nuetzlich", at least according to the wordbooks) >> Adj. ạn·ge·wandt >> "auf die praktische Anwendung gerichtet"

Practicality can be said as "praktische Anwendbarkeit"

There are many combinations with lust ... I found lustgrin (lustgryn) and it's translation funny. OE also has gâl ... cognate of Ger. geil ... and has many words with it as well. We may have a doublets from it: goal and gole. It lived into ME as gole (that still can be found in the wordbook but not with the same meaning) BTW, if you see â or ā then it's probably close to the German "ei" and late the long o in English ... hâm = heim = home.

I'v been thinking about second ... English has used the dative form of words to make new words from twegen we get: gen. twéga, twégea, tweágea, twíga, twégera, twégra (later Gospels have tweigre, tweire); dat. twám, twǽm. ... That's real close to twain. Anyway ... none of these are being used so pick one for second.

"The new stone age upheaval had far-reaching outcomes."

Empirical ... hmmmm ... The "eyewitnessed" evidence?

The word I was thinking about earlier today was "future" ... the OE word ... forthschaft ... just doen't seem to tell me anything! Becoming would be the calque of future but that is alreddy taken and has a different meaning. Maybe forthcoming or just forthcome. What does the forthcome hold?

It's late and I'm tired ...