“Anglish”

Just been checking up on Mr S Wodening, I know he is quoted in Wiktionary for the word 'sig' but what are his sources? As the ME spelling would almost undeniably have been pronounced along the lines of 'seeya', I find it very difficult to feel at one with his heathen writings (not from any religious bent I may add) because he wheels about betwixt modern English and Anglo- Saxon words, then it seems he updates a few words by his own wont.

Maybe I'm being overly harsh, but I see no evidence for his peculiar pronunciation or spelling of 'sig' , and believe me if I was am convinced then I'd most definitely take the extant word on board, and drop the idea of 'sye' or 'seyer'.

Sorry, let me qualify my last statement... can't find any verification of 'sig' in any other word list compilation outside of Wiktionary.

I take your point on the whole West Saxon malarky, but modern English grew out of Anglian/ Mercian Dialects and not West Saxon. I was also taught 'forforgietan' was ' foryeet'n' in Old West Saxon and had some Norse influence over the 'g' sound, thus we have 'yet' and 'get', 'yes' and 'guess' and likely a load more - ok, I also accept that a large amount of Anglian speakers probably found Norse dialects mutually intelligible. I don't quite buy into the idea that Bernard Cornwell puts forward in his Saxon chronicles that a Northumbrian would have effortlessly spoken with a West Saxon, and found Danish a complete conundrum ( especially when the originating Anglian dialects lived side by side their Norse kindreds in Northern Germany way before migration)... seems Cornwell may have been writing for a North American audience with no typographical knowledge of England and Northern Europe....but anyway I seriously digress :/

I still think despite your valid points and no doubt justifiable grounds for sundry spelling, that your method can only sway followers to re-use true English words if they have all the kit and trappings of an historical linguist. I think we're on the same page regarding the reintroduction or popularisation of OE words in a modern framework, but confusing the issue with odd spelling convention snubs within the average English speaker any kindling of their empathy towards their own native words.

BTW, can't find any record of Sig in modern or early modern English, never mind the elongated 'e' sound therein.

Cowley, does indeed give 'busen' as another option, pronounced ' bizzen', I suppose it must mimic 'busy' in some way.

byspel http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/byspel ... forbus? I'v seen it in wiktionary but it has no references and I can't find it in the MED nor can I find the OE word it supposedly comes from. No byspels are given of its brooking. They may stand but I haven't seen them.

In OE, example was bīspel (byspel) and bīsen(e) (bisen/bysen ...by seen). I started out noting bysen but swapped to byspel since it is a cognate with Ger. Beispiel. ... My only problem is that I want to say zum Beispiel insted for byspel! lol

The "g" was a "y" in the Late West Saxon dialect before "e" or "i" ... often but not always ... And not always in the other major dialects either. The LWS was likely the softest of the sundry dialects. But there are byspels of a hard "g" before these vowels ... after all, we hav beget (OE begietan) and forget (OE forgietan) ... we still hav gebur and gemot/gemote/gemoot all with a hard "g". Furthermore, we hav a slew of German loanwords with a hard "ge-". I'v even seen "gefrain" (reputation) being brooked. So regardless of how the LWS might hav said the word, we get to pick.

With OE and early ME words, yu can stay true (or truer) to the spelling or the perceived Late West Saxon dialect ... but yu often can't do both. As for me, I'll take the spellings with the hard 'g'. Many of the words lost the ge- forefast owing to that it was soft so if yu go with to the 'y' lude (sound) then yu'r making the same mistake again. Truly, I don't understand this fascination with wanting to edquicken the Late West Saxon ludes. Aside from that ... "sig" is a standing word. There's no need to offer up a created word. ... For sig, I might hav gone with "sige" and a hard "g" but there was no need since "sig" is already there ... and it is said with a hard "g". It sounds like Ger. Sieg ... If I were choosing the spelling, I'd likely go with seeg but again, the word is alreddy there ... it is what it is.

Do you know what, I like 'sye' so much I've entered it into the Anglish word book... Cheers Anwulf.

Followed that link, interesting, I can accept that the word might have updated as 'sye' or even 'sey'... very possible that the -er ending wouldn't have lived on into modern times.

Cowley also offers ' forbus' as an updated replacement for ' for example' is 'by spel' testified as an Old English variant or is it based on the calque ' zum Beispiel' ?

Cowley offers 'seyer' as an update, as the 'g' was a 'y' sound in that position. The problem with writing 'sig' is that most modern English speakers would pronounce it as that.

Sig (victory) - http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sig ... from ME sige http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sige (He sige hælde. — Aelfric's Treatise on the Old Testament, 1175).

Yes, yu can't throw too much out at one time. Most of my free spelling is eath-seen ... hav=have, altho, tho, thru, enuff, asf ... is noting words like brook/benote/note or byspel for example that throws them ... then acknow for recognize and a few others.

Yeah, if we could alone put back or popularise ME words then that would be a great seyer (victory) in itself. Then I would seriously swap 'getting on my high horse' for 'mounting my pony'. The problem using off the wall spelling, and too many, unusual words all in one fell swoop is that folk tend to view you as being a little moon-addled. But personally, i think 'ingang' rocks!

Bringing a word forward from Middle English isn't too hard. Jumping back to Old English is a little trickier at times owing to orthography. ME has its own problems in that spellings were all over the place. Thus one would find wode and wood swapped at will even tho they hav greatly sunder meanings! They were unbecloudy in OE but not in ME and the spellings are still befuddled. To wax wode and to wax wood are not even near.

Old meanings are often lost. For byspel, folks don't kno that "to brook" means "to use" or "to note"/"to benote" also means "to use". They think that manship is a synonym for manhood ... and they note it that way. Only this morning I updated the wiktionary entry for manship to inhold the older, lost meanings as well.

Yesterday I dithered over whether to use "ingang" when I was writing a narrativ. Ingang is still in play in nowadays English but is mostly unknown.

I latch flak almost everyday from someone since I do note this words ... that and my freespelling! lol

If yu want some of these words to come back into noting, then yu hav to note them every day til they become twoth (second) nature.

"useful >> handy, helpful, fitting, befitting, and so forth." I forgot fremeful!!!

Gallitrot: LOL!

averse >> shy, unwilling, against, loath, wavering, and so on.

sated >> stuffed, soaked, overfilled, stodged (S.English), asf.

useful >> handy, helpful, fitting, befitting, and so forth.

provide >> give, bestow, outfit, and others.

complicate >> muddle, muck up, addle, befuddle, darken, mislead, and many more.

reserve >> keep, (with)hold

native >> inborn, first

Norman French really did borrow vastly from germanic sources, specifically Old Norse as this little weblink beautifully beshows:

http://viking.no/e/france/norman_on_words.htm

Hey Aenglefolc,

There are a couple of drugs out there for sepsqui...idibiddihibbiddy...doodah...... oh sod it, but I find this one for a few pounds taken at least twice a day helps just fine ;)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hastings-1066-Words-Wed-Wield/dp/0755213769/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1329084247&sr=8-1

I, too, am okay with some Anglo-Norman/ Norma-French words, since many are from Frankish and Norse anyway. The Normans took many Teutonic words and gave them new meanings to fit whatever thing they needed it for.

sesquipedalianism < Latin sēsquipedālis measuring a foot and a half = (E.) one and a half foot long words, words that are way too long. This is a word that must go!

So, academicians, politicians, and know-it-all's are all guilty of "Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness"? Yikes!!! Are they any drugs (< Dutch droog) for this? ;-)

@Anwulf I'm utterly at one with you over the Latinish words of before 1066, though there weren't many when likening to today's Latin-sated English, the church wasn't averse in borrowing words when it wanted. To be fair, I'm not the slightest bit worried about Norman French words that do a useful job, or provide a useful doublet that ord-English or core English wouldn't have given us alonestanding. But I reserve the right as a native speaker to be able to linguistically make that choice for myself. If think a foreign word is clouding the issue, or complicating a simple matter, then I should have the right to cast it aside for one that is just as eath and even clearer to understand from our native stock.

I will definitely start paying more attention to Wiktionary, as I believe only a full compilation of English words from the 450s through to today can truly be deemed a fair lexical choice for the native speaking masses, especially the century of vocabulary before Hastings. I've been very lucky to have correspondence with David Cowley who has, hallows be thanked, given us the Old English update manual '' How We'd Talk If The English Had Won In 1066 '' and ''Words We'd Wield If We'd Won'' . With steering-texts such as his, then it may just be possible to re-imbue our mother tongue with some of its own core wordstock and replace and instead needless and confusing examples of sesquipedalianism :/

AnWulf: I am with you. Latin before 1066 is good with me. The words came into English without having to strong arm the folks with "class and academic" puff and aloofness.

Old English fædera "paternal uncle" (see German Vetter)

Old English ēam "maternal uncle" (see German Ohm, Oheim)

These are great words that are straight forward. Saying "uncle" always needs more to be understood-- "my uncle, my mom's brother", and so forth.

At least, I think the Scots still say eme.

@Gallitrot ... I'm not a subscriber to the OED so I can't see their whole unabridged wordbook ... I'v been told that it is about 20 volumes. But sometimes yu get a little gem like maegth/mægth ... http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/115332 ... If you type it the search box, it doesn't show. It's one that yu must know the entry number for.

I can understand why Old English/Anglo-Saxon words wouldn't show up in a desktop wordbook. The whole orthography of OE/AS is very different than nowadays English ... And if yu add in the changes in pronunciations from the early migration to the Late West Saxon dialects ... it becomes a true headache.

What I find disappointing is not only how many are hidden behind the subscription wall but that a search doesn't tell yu that. At last if the word stands behind the subscription wall at M-W, it asks yu to subscribe.

Likely, yu'll find more at wiktionary. It lists not only New English, but Middle English, and Old English words as well. It is still growing. Hardly a day goes by that I don't make at least one entry of some kind. Aside from wiktionary, there are other sources for OE and ME words.

Wiktionary isn't eath to browse but it does nicely break down into a lot categories ... Want to kno the be- words? Or the ge- words in English? Then look at the categories.

My cutoff is 1066 ... If a Latinate was in English before the Takeover, then I'm good with it. There aren't that many.

Re the last post... I obviously meant '' ...from the 12th Century onwards'' and not ''by''.

My biggest problem presently is with the OED's interminable idiocy in discounting words that weren't in English by the 12th Century. If English is counted as an extant language, or living tongue, from the point of conception - then why does the OED have the audacity to discount 700 years of its vocabulary? No other language does this as far as I'm aware. Being English, I also take issue with those of my landsmen who seem to proclaim the hypocritical view of Alfred the Great as true king of the English but only consider viewing their country's characteristics and mannerisms as being of worth if hailing from post-Norman conquest England.

Oh, read something in one of the earlier comments about the fact that certain words of English originally came from Low German of Latin origin - that's no problem at all - seeing as English should only be counting words from its own beginnings, and not those borrowings from before it was conceived. Otherwise it would be as mad as a Frenchman taking umbrage with the Romans for taking Germanic words into Latin before French came into being.

AnWulf:

To my knowledge, German sicher, Dutch zeker, O.E. sicor, O.Sax sikur, M.E. siker (still might be said in Northern English and Scottish), are all from the L. sêcûrus (as are the doublets sure and secure).

King Alfred's Ænglisc Cura Pastoralis was written about 890, in which O.E. sicor is written once. O.E. sicor (although coming from Latin) could be thought of as a likely sidelong loan from Old Saxon sikur owing to how it is said and written.

Anyway, this word was borrowed by the Germanic folks way before 450 A.D., or as Friedrich Kluge and Frederick Lutz put it, sicor was "borrowed during the first centuries of the Christian era." It is thought to be one of the roughly 170 or so "Continental" borrowings, like cheese and wine.

Sorry, this one seems true.

There are sundry words that I believe to be either truly of OE roots or a blend of OE and French/Latin but I can't prove it. For byspel, tally is said to be from French/Latin ... yet in OE we tal/tæl meaning number/a number of; talian meaning to count; and sundry kennings such as tælcræft meaning arithmetic.

@Ængelfolc ... etym frain for yu. Siker ... German sicher from OHG sichur ... is said to come from Latin securus. Is this right? No PIE root is given.

By the way there is one setting where we do put something between the doing-word and the object/complement: there is a short list of how-often words which usually come (1) between subject and verb, or (2) after the helping-verb. [never, hardly, ever, sometimes, usually, often, always]. These how-often-words also come after the verb "to be" when brooked as a main verb followed by a complement. (3) This stead in the word-order hight "middle-stead".
So we say:
(1) "She always dresses well."
(2) "She is always dressed well"
(3) "She is always well-dressed"
However "everyday" is not a how-often-word; it is an adjective. "every day" (two words) does tell us how often; but it is two words and as cannot be pushed into the middle-stead.
So at last:
"They seem to be ever more and more wrong-headed" is okay as "ever" is on the shortlist.
"They seem to be more and more wrong-headed every day" is okay too.
Such is today's English word order. One could wish for something straightforwarder.

"seneschal"... sort of germanic in origin"

Not sort of...it is >> indeed, it came through Old French, but from Frankish siniscalc,< PGmc. *sini- “senior” + PGmc. *skalk “servant”, much like marshal.

And, thanks for the help!

I came up with "High-Reeve" because it is still brooked in some states of Canada I think, for the State-Governor perhaps.
I was quite taken aback to find out that "reason" and "seneschal" were sort of germanic in origin. I would have guessed N. Fr. !x
"Marshal" is still a rank in the Brit armed forces esp Field-Marshal, so perhaps it would be better left out of the lawmakers' ranks.
"T... to be everyday more and more wrong-headed,.."
s.b. "to be more and more wrong-headed everyday" - we like the object/complement to follow immediately after the verb in English. (Otherwise: excellent!!)

ræswa / ræswan, ræswian/ rǣsian, rēsian/ ræswum/ rēsung, rǣswung < PGmc. *rēswanan “to think, reckon, calculate” ; akin to Gothic raþjo, OHG reda, redī, O.E. rǣs (PGmc. *rēswō/*rēswô “counsel, reckoning”); ON ræsir “leader, chief, king, prince” .

It would seem that the New English ("modern") word REASON may be a blending of Anglo-Norman raisun and the Germanic that was already being said in English. The two words are not akin at the PIE roots. It is thought that Anglo-French raisun is from PIE *reh₁- “to put in order”, and the Teutonic English rǣsian (and the other shapes) is from PIE *rei- “to reason, count”.

So, this is another showing that one cannot take words as Latin-French owing to the telltales of "classical scholars". Keep in mind, they are brain-washed; they believe that English is low-brow, and that it is unlikely that "Anglo-Saxons" could've had such loft thoughts, much less words for them.

These "scholars" thoughts on this look to be everyday more and more wrong-headed, untrue drollery and thoughtless foolishness.

birr from OE byre: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/birr

force, vigor, energy
a strong wind.
the force of the wind; rush, impetus, momentum, driving force
a thrust or push
a whirring noise

---
resung, ræswung f. - reasoning, conjecture
ræswa m. - leader, counsellor, ruler, guide: chief, prince, king.
ræswan, ræswian - to think, consider, conjecture, suspect
ræswum dp. of *ræs or ræsu f. or *ræswa - suggestion, deliberation, counsel

so reason would be likely be ræs >>> reas ... dat rease, dat pl reasum ... Norman scribes didn't like u before m ... reasom ... then we're back to reason.

Prime Minister >>> High Overseer?; I've never like "minister" as the name for this job. Seems too church-like.

Chancellor >> Ombudsman, Marshal, Warden? CHIEF is from Old French chef...so, maybe 'Head Steward'? One could say 'Head Seneschal' (a good Teutonic word), but steward and reeve are about the same.

Reason(s)...could also be 'whatfor' and 'whyfor'; TO REASON >>> think through, work out, thresh out, gather, draw from, think, and so on.

bin der selber Meinung. I had a trimaran that was quite yare, although I was unyarked to go out in really bad weather.
Reasons: the whys and wherefores... or just the wherefore
the means: the wherewithal
Prime MInister->> the High-Reeve ????
Chancellor ->> Chief Steward ??? ("doorkeeper" sounds a bit low)

Great English Word

>> YARK "To dispose; be set in order for; be destined or intended for"

Today I tripped across this word: tholemod* - meaning patient. I'v also found it brooked as a noun as "patience" but I hav also seen tholemodness benoted for the noun as well. I haven't found either brooked beyond ME (for ease of reading: þ,ð = th, ᵹ = g):

For tholemod is, the thuldeliche abereth woh thet me him deth. Eadmod is, the tholie mei thet me him mis-segge. ... For patient is, who patiently bears woe that one him does. Humble is, who tolerates mess that folks (to/of) him mis-say.

It's a kenning of thole+mood ... a tolerating-mood > patience.

Here's another one:
Her biginneth the other dale of the heorte warde thurh the fif wittes. ... Here begins the twoth** part of the heart-ward thru the five senses.

I like dale for part (a sunder spelling for deal). Mark that witt is sense.

One more:
... god is thet ye easki read ant salve thet he teache ow togeines fondunges. ... good is that you aseek (ask) rede and salve (remedies) that he teaches you against temptation. Fondunge (OE fandung) is temptation.

tholemod: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tholemod
twoth: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/twoth

On another note, I was saddened to find that "gist" and "mess" hav Latin roots. Since it means "essence", I was guessing that gist had come thru the Franks and was akin to geist ... but I was wrong. :( ... Still, I like the word! lol

Anent mess, I should hav guess that it was French since it is brooked in the military in "mess hall".

This Anglish idea is outstanding, and I enjoy reading about it. I hope someone is keeping track of the word-treasury that is being made here.

Waes ge hael!

I s'pose the bridge is the meaning of 'imagination'. Our English word 'mind' has lost this sense of imagery and pictures--'the mind's eye', as it were. 'Kvikmynd' is great, though. We have very few general words for illustrations, pictures, images, et c. with English roots.

"I always thought it [mynd] had something to do with the English word 'mind'."

It has the same roots as written about MIND above. Old Icelandic mynd, Gothic gamund(s), OHG gemunt, OE gemynd < PGmc *gamundiz, *mundiz “memory, remembrance” < PIE *men- "think".

Also, in today's German we have German meinen and mahnen from the same roots; Faroese ljósmynd "photograph". Icelandic Vennmynd "Venn Diagram", Icelandic kvikmynd "motion picture".

Who says that Teutonic tongues need Latin and Greek to make them "richer"?

The other day I wrote "mindsight" for imagination without even thinking about. But I guess it would work for idea as well.

This reMINDS me of something. I seem to remember from Icelandic class the word 'mynd', 'picture'. I always thought it had something to do with the English word 'mind'. They've got 'hugmynd' for 'idea', literally, 'mind-picture'. I think 'mynd' still retains the meaning 'imagination' in Faroese. I know Old English had 'gemynd' [memory, thought]. Maybe it's related to 'minna'. Anyone have an Faroese or Icelandic etymological dictionary handy?

In German, we still say minnen (to love < tongue in cheek) and die Minne, der Minnesaenger/ Minnesang, and das Minnetrinken. All of these are akin to M.E. min < ON minni. The word that stemmed from the same root (*[ga]minþijan) in today's English is MIND, Minion, and Minikin (from Dutch).

M.E. min < O.E. min < PGmc. *minniz, shares the same Germanic root as German minder "less, lower", and the same PIE root as L. minus.

An interesting word: min
adj - less, small (OE min) See it in ME min(t)while ... an instant, moment
noun - memory, remembrance (ON minni)
verb - to remind, remember, mention (ON minna)

Oh....and, how could I forget....HEAR! LOL!

HERSUM < Old English hīersum, ġehīersum, Low German horzam, hursam = German gehorsam, all have the same root > hoeren "to listen", Eng. hearken/harken, German horchen, Old Frisina harkia "listen", and others.

@HolyMackerel ... Good catch. Yes, they are and can be found in brooking after ME. I like hersum better owing to its a little shorter; it retains the better spelling of "sum" rather than "some"; and the meaning is less likely to befuddled. Only to look at the word, one would think more related to hearing than "hear and obey". To me, without knowing the true meaning, a "hearsome woman" would be one that likes to eavesdrop!

OTOH, it might be eather, to get folks to brook hearsome than hersum ...

The words 'hearsome' and 'hearsomeness' can still be found in the wordbook.

HERSUM is also an adjective in Scottish English. It means "rancid, rank, harsh"; akin to Danish harks "rank, rancid".

It. Pistore, Portuguese Pistor < L. Pistor "miller, baker" < L.L. Pistare, freq. of L. pī(n)sere (pp. pistus) "stamp, pound, crush"; see also L. Pistrix "miller, baker". Akin to pist(e), pestle/ pistil (from the same PIE root), piston, and pesto.

L. Pistor has nothing to do with the root of English/Germanic BAKE.

@Ængelfolc ... It's only natural that soldiers will take words from whichever military they're serving ... or in a lot of contact with. If I were in the French Foreign Legion, I'd kno a lot of French military terms ... But then, many of the English speaking military terms are French to begin with! In our case, the Saxon athelu (nobility) was hunted down and slaughtered in the years after 1066 so the Norman-French military terms took over.

@Jayes
bake
O.E. bacan "to bake," from P.Gmc. *bakanan (cf. O.N. baka, M.Du. backen, O.H.G. bahhan, Ger. backen), from P.Gmc. *bakan "to bake," from PIE *bheg- "to warm, roast, bake"

Cook is fore-1066 (as is oil which is Greek rooted)
cook (n.)
O.E. coc, from V.L. cocus "cook," from L. coquus, from coquere "to cook, prepare food, ripen, digest, turn over in the mind" from PIE base *pekw- "to cook" (cf. Oscan popina "kitchen," Skt. pakvah "cooked," Gk. peptein, Lith. kepti "to bake, roast," O.C.S. pecenu "roasted," Welsh poeth "cooked, baked, hot"). Germanic languages had no one native term for all types of cooking, and borrowed the Latin word (cf. O.S. kok, O.H.G. choh, Ger. Koch, Swed. kock).

A word that I found still in a wordbook ... hersum ... obey (v), obedient (adj) ... hersumness (obedience). That's pretty much unchanged from OE except that the verb was hersumian.

And if you don't want to call that little blinking light on your modem (or other electronic stuff) a "status light" or "indicator light" ... calling a blinkenlight! Yes, that is a word for them!

And if you don't want to say multiply, multiplying, multiplication ... Say times and timesing (in the OED!) Yu should hav seen that flak that I caught on another forum for telling someone that they are good words! Even after I quoted timesing in several books going back many, many years (late 1800s) ... they still insisted that either it's not a word or that it shouldn't be brooked formally! (They don't like brook for use either! lol)

I thought "baker" orignally came from the latin "pistor" ????

Yes DRAFT (Draught) is from O.E. *dreaht, *dræht "to drag/draw" < PGmc. *dragan "to pull, draw"

"It seems to me that the thrust of "Anglish" should be more about shunning snobbish overdressed, unneeded words than overworrying about their true historic roots."

They go hand in hand!

BAKE is not from Latin: It's Germanic. BAKE < Old English bacan “to bake” < PGmc *bakanan "to bake" < P.I.E. *bheg-/bhag-

So "the draft" (as in conscripted soldiers) is Germanic?
But cook, bake, oil, cheese, are at root more Latinate?
It seems to me that the thrust of "Anglish" should be more about shunning snobbish overdressed, unneeded words than overworrying about their true historic roots.

AnWulf:

I think you will like this book > http://books.google.com/books?id=RONb2alF0rEC&pg=PA203&dq=Gothic+military+language&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jywJT-n_Ec_TgQfp17GcAg&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Gothic%20military%20language&f=false

The writer seems to say that Latin loans (Church words notwithstanding) began to come into the Germanic tongues (here Gothic) in about 257 A.D., when he Romans gave Dacia to the Goths. Here is where a lot of war words from Latin came from. It seems that when the Goths were fighting for Rome, they brooked the Roman words. When fighting for the Gothic Heere, they brooked Germanic words.

Let me know what you think...

Anwulf: you might take a look at heeresranks: eg wikipedia military comparative ranks.
Sadly the German ranks are littered with Frenchisms like Leutenant, but some such as "Feldwebel" might have come across to Engish. I know "sergeant" is N Fr but I quite like it.. and it gives us sergeant-at-arms, whereas Hauptman leads to headman or foreman which both have untoward meanings in today's English.

geld (n.) "royal tax in medieval England"

gelt (n.) "money"

I think that meed-gelt while maybe a bit redundant would be good for the gelt gotten as the pension/reward. The earlier of foreset of using geld for tax works!

I wrote a whole blog on what military forces could be called and I need to update it with a few more ideas: http://lupussolus.typepad.com/blog/2011/08/anglo-saxon-names-for-the-modern-military.html

I love the word 'addle'. The etymology given by Oxford is, Middle English : from Old English adela [liquid filth]. 'Liquid filth'. Brilliant.

It's also an archaic adjective for '(of an egg) rotten'. Now when we're confused, our minds turn to liquid egg filth.

Yes!

Walnut > wealh + hnutu = "foreign nut"; word came about so that this nut would not be addled with Hazelnut (O.E. hæselhnutu < P.Gmc. *hasalaz + *hnutuz)

Horde, 16c. < Mongolian or West Turkic (whence also Urdu, Hindi urdū < Persian zabān i urdū "language of the camp") to English through French, Spanish, or Czech/Polish < Ukrainian dialect gordá, Ukrainian ordá < Old Russian Zolotaya Orda < Turkic ordu, orda "royal residence or camp"; later "army". The "H" likely came from Czech/Polish.

Hungarian Had (Army) seems to be from the Finno-Ugric root *kunta; akin to Finnish kunta "community or group; corps". See also Finnish henkilökunta (staff), ihmiskunta (humankind), kansakunta (nation).

Happy New Year!

Aye, 'Cymru' is the Welsh word for Wales which shares its root with 'Cumbria'. 'Wales' comes from the Anglo-Saxon 'wealh', 'foreigner' which is pretty bad. This is also the root of 'walnut', I believe.

"The Home Guard" could be the English defence forces..
"horde" is an interesting word: might be "had"=army in Hungarian
Wales is rightfully called "Cymru" I think.

Scotland could be written as Skot(t)land...maybe go back to Alba...Caledonia...Scotia...

England could be Ængland again...Wales and Ireland could be > Britain!

"Sjøforsvaret" means Navy in Norwegian/Danish. A land called "Navy" > Sjø "Sea" + Forsvaret "Defence" (vb. forsvare "defend")....

What with the Scottish Unraveling (Scottish Devolution? < Latin, 'ex' and 'volvere', 'to roll out') you'll need to thinking again about British nomenclature. But you can still always say either England or the United Kingdom, outlandish earnings aside (Anglo-Saxon, 'utlendisc', 'foreign'). Scotland's not yet an outland. I read something in The Independent about the SNP looking to have Scotland "become a member of the Scandinavian circle of countries, with its own army, navy and air force modelled on its Nordic neighbours" after independence. Maybe we'll get a good name like 'Sjøforsvaret'. The Seaforswearing.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bye-bye-england-snp-plans-closer-scandinavian-ties-after-independence-6272337.html

@jayles: It is a struggle for us all! I like what the words you put forth for "inappropriate". As for the "English Government", I guess it could be said that England is under the foot of the U.K. :-0

In truth "realm" stems from "royaume" so "the English government" should perhaps be "the UK" or ???
Also I meant meed-yield not meed-geld.
It's an ongoing struggle to relearn the English tongue!
Lastly I came up with stand-ins for "inappropriate behavior" >> "untoward behavior"
"wayward behavior" "froward behavior"

@jayles:

Well done! Ausgezeichnet!

I struggled to write an email in anglish at last:
I have spent much time over the yuletide break filling in writings seeking meed-geld from the English realm. It is a long-winded work because of all my time spent abroad and the end-outcome may only be about two hundred shillings a week, which is not much; but the lawmakers hereabouts will top it up to the full whack.

Well done!
I think 'geld' was some kind of tax. So 'pension contributions' or 'social security tax' would become 'meed-geld'.
I think 'guild' is best left with today's meaning of a club or association as in 'Guildhall'.
'Pension' itself is a return on investment and properly described as a 'yield'.
(as in 'dividend yield') so 'meed-yield' might be good for that.
To me 'meed-getter' is quite clear for pensioner.

'geld' for tax would of course mean 'taxpayers' were 'geldings' ; so apt. !!! ;=))

Actually, to my surprise, in OE there was mēdgilda

mēd = meed - deserved share, reward
gild = compensation (guild or yield)
a = er

some who gets his deserved share of compensation ... a pensioner ... could also be a mercenary! lol

So I guess today it would be something like meedgilder, meedguilder, or meedgetter? (I don't think meedyielder works since that looks like you're yielding the meed rather than getting it.) Or if you like gelt ... geltgetter? I like either meedgilder or meedguilder.

Pension?? do we have a good word for it? something ending in "Gelt" perhaps?
Having spent the last six hours trying to fill in my claim for state pension... there were a lot of silly asks... like "name the exact dates on which you entered and left the UK" ... a big ask when looking back over the last forty years!!!

Well I do hav two unopened bottles of wine ...

To be a little more right ... silly comes from sælig. But we could keep the old greetings using the old forms ... just as folks often say wassail at Christmas and hav no idea of what it means! lol ... It's a smashing together of "wes hal" ... or the longer form that I brook: wes thu hal (wes þu hal).

So we could say, "Glad Yule(tide) and Gesaelig New Year!" as idiomatic.

Which is all better than wansaelig ... unhappy.

gesaelig is now of course "silly" in today's English. Perhaps we should requicken its earlier meaning?
There's nowt wrong with "happy" "merry" "blithe" - all good English words, so
"Merry Yuletide and Happy New Year!!" sounds good to me.
Or we could drink ourselves silly ....

glæd means glad ... gesælig means happy (as does sælig)

Glæd Geol and Gesælig Niw Gear. ... Glad Yule and Gesilly(?)/(ME sely) New Year

O.E. ġeōltīd

O.N. Jólnir "yule figure" (one of Odin's many names)

Miriġe Crīstesmæsse > Glæd Geol > God Geōl!!

@jayles ... Wlatsome \Wlat"some\, a.- Loathsome; disgusting; hateful. [Obs.]
Murder is . . . wlatsom and abhominable to God. --Chaucer.

@black jayles ... They have hav near meanings but sunder roots. Loath comewas from lāþ ... (no w). Both wlatsom and lōth were in ME ... and they both stand today.

I would fain point out that "wlatsome" is forsooth "loathesome" in today's tongue.
And good yuletide to you one and all.

So how does one pronounce "wlatsome"??? Is the "w" silent?? and the "a" short like bat,cat.that??

@Ængelgolc ... Thanks, I wanted to be wis about it. Sometimes the marks are murky as to whether it is thought to be the root or if it is a cognate. None the less, it would be an eath thing for the "learned" folks of the time to onefoldly swap the 'h' in traht for the 'c' of tract and keep benoting the same lude but looking "smarter" by benoting the Latin one. And thus the trail of traht blends with tract. The MED has them both under one heading.

"Trail" is another one that may be wrong. Online etym says: from O.Fr. trailler "to tow," ultimately from V.L. *tragulare "to drag," from L. tragula "dragnet," probably related to trahere "to pull" (see tract (1)). Trawl: from Du. tragelen, from M.Du. traghelen "to drag," from traghel "dragnet," probably from L. tragula "dragnet."

The OED says: ORIGIN Middle English (as a verb): from Old French traillier ‘to tow,’ or Middle Low German treilen ‘haul (a boat),’ based on Latin tragula ‘dragnet,’ from trahere ‘to pull.’ Compare with trawl. ... Trawl: Middle Dutch traghelen ‘to drag’ (related to traghel ‘dragnet’), perhaps from Latin tragula ‘dragnet.’

It would seem that trail and trawl hav the same root problem as traht. The interesting thing is that traht is only benoted in the wit of comment/commentary ... nothing to do with pulling, dragging, or tracing.

@Holy Mackeral ... wlatsome is still in the wordbook.

@AnWulf: "Is OE traht from OHG or Latin? Is the OHG from Latin or from the PIE?"

The OHG/OE tahton/trahtian is from the PIE root DERK "to see, behold, notice, observe". They are not from Latin. See pg. 499, Eur-Aryan roots, Volume 1 (1897) by Joseph Baly.

There are many overlapping PIE rooted words between Latin, Greek, and the Teutonic tongues, which "learned men" heedlessly slight and wrongfully overlook.

In Scots, in addition to 'tae frain' we also have 'tae speir', akin to Swedish 'spörja'.

I've always like the word 'wlite'. We've lost all those good wl- words in English.

For 'majority', Dutch has, quite pleasingly, 'meerderheid', literally 'morehood'. German, of course, has 'Mehrheit' also.

Ængelfolc ... etym frain for yu. I'm befuddled from the notations. Is OE traht from OHG or Latin? Is the OHG from Latin or from the PIE?

Looks like traht and tract were in ME ... with the credit for tract (if not from traht, then at least a cognate of traht) going to Latin. After all, the pronunciation of traht and tract would be the same to me or nearly the same ... enuff to be eathly blended.

>OE
traht m. text, passage: exposition, treatise, commentary [L. tractus]

trahtbôc f. (religious) treatise, commentary

±traht-ian, -nian to treat, comment on, expound, consider. [L. tractare; Ger. trachten]

trahtian - expound, explain (from OHG trahtðn (tractare, reputare)?)
trahtung - exposition, comment ( from OHG trahtunga?)
> ME
tract(e (n.(1)) Also (early) traht.

[OE traht, tract (from L); for 15th-cent. quots. also cp. AL tractus, perh. used for L tracttus.]

@Jayes ... Yes, we do "go to the polls" when we choose ... lawmakers.

Odds and ends:

Here is a word that I'v been looking at this morning:
whilend - temporary (ME whilende and whilewende). I kind like the ME whilewende better, it's eather to say.

I'v been looking for word that takes the sted of "very" as an intensifier. Ferly kind of works but what I'v seen is that was usually done with a prefix either for- ... forthirst: very thirsty; forwalked: exhausted after walking ... or, in OE, fela- ... felalêof: very dear, felasynnig: very guilty.

As it so happens, the ME "fele" is still in the wordbook! It seems to be said like "feel" rather than fe-le but I'm not sure. It is said like feel in kennings like "feelefold" (also in the wordbook) - manifold, multitude (think Ger. viel) ... said like feel-fold ... also spelled felefold ... OE felafeald.

Felest means the most, the majority.

But I like fela or fe-le for very ... maybe it is only forthan the two ludes (sounds).

I thought "forthen" would be good for "because" but it turns out that "forthen" is also still in the wordbook: even, exactly, quite, already, just as, at first, further, previously.

Well, I guess I can brook "forthen" for "exactly" ... However, both forthy (said as forthī) and forwhy are still in the wordbook for "because"!

@Holy Macker ... not wis as to what yu're looking for. I'm guessing "aspect". Here are a few more plus the ones that yu found that I expanded out.

ansîen I. (on-; ê, î, ý) fn. - countenance, face; form, figure, presence:
view, aspect, sight, thing seen; surface. [ME ansene ... anseen]

mǣgwlite (â, ê) m. aspect, appearance, species, form.

sihð, +siht (ie, y) f. - faculty or act of sight; aspect: what is seen, vision, apparition.

syge I. m. - sight, aspect, view

---

andwlita (a, eo) m. face, forehead, countenance, form (anlēt, anlete, onlete in ME)
wlita m. countenance
wlîtan to gaze, look, observe.

blêo n. gs. blêos, ds. blêo, gp. blêo(na), dip. blêom, blêo(w)um - color, appearance, form

hîw (êo, îe, ý) n. - appearance, form, species, kind; apparition [hue,color]
hîwbeorht - radiant, beautiful.

scêawung (a) f. seeing, surveying, inspection, scrutiny, examination, contemplation; respect, regard: show, spectacle, appearance; toll on exposure of goods. [showing]

wlite m. - brightness: appearance, form, aspect, look, countenance: beauty, splendor, adornment
wliteandet n. - confession of splendor
wlitebeorht - beauteous.
wliteful - beautiful
wlitelêas - ugly
wlitelîce - handsomely,lovely, beautiful.
wlîtesêon f. - sight, spectacle
wlitetorht - brilliant, lovely.
wlitewamm m. - disfigurement of the face.
wliteweorð n. - legal value of a man's life, ransom
wlitig - radiant, beautiful, fair, comely; adv. -ige, -iglîce.
wlitigfæst - of enduring beauty
wlitigian - to beautify, adorn: become beautiful, form, fashion
wlitignes f. - beauty, splendor

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CqXCPtttljYC&pg=PR19&lpg=PR19&dq=A+Thesaurus+of+Old+English:+Introduction+and+thesaurus+By+Jane+Roberts,+Christian+Kay,+Lynne+Grundy&source=bl&ots=dSv9wC7kvu&sig=uMITcAbOgat93RKq47EhF7c5TSk&hl=en#v=onepage&q=aspect&f=false

Found 'poll' is from M L G so we can brook it for elections

I have the whole list of OE grammar terms on my old laptop. I seldseenly brook them. Most of them are fairly twisted and only calques of the Latin words.

English does have "nameword" for noun but if I had my druthers, I'd benote "nama" forthen it is shorter in length. OE had two words for pronoun, the calque "forenama" and "bīnama" (byname).

I'd hav to look but I think the OE word for verb was ... word (calquing Latin verbum ‘word'). Not very bewriting (describing).

For adjectiv it was tōgeīcendlic (added to, from tōgeīcan to add to, increase ... again, calquing the Latin). Maybe bewriter (describer) would work since an adj bewrites (describes) a noun.

I do like 'wordtide' for 'tense'. The Dutch word for verb is 'werkwoord' and in Frisian it's 'tiidwoord', literally ''workword' and 'timeword'. I imagine in Anglo-Saxon says the word 'verbum' was probably used.

Ah I see. I imagine the noun 'gefræge' took on the sense of the adjective 'gefrǽge'. My Anglo-Saxon dictionary give 'hearsay' first for 'gefræge'. 'Renowned hearsay' is pretty good for 'reputation'.

I saw that you wrote 'adjective' also. I haven't looked up Anglo-Saxon words for grammatical terms yet (I imagine there's some mediaevel Latin primer written in Anglo-Saxon that has a few) but when I studied Icelandic I always liked the words the Icelandic Language Institute invented to keep linguistic purism. 'Lýsingorð' for 'adjective', literally 'illuminating word' from 'lýsa', 'to light up' and 'orð', word. Lightingword? I always liked 'Þolfall' for 'accusative case' which means something like 'the suffering case' or 'the case when something has to be withstood'. Good old nordic gloom. (The Icelanders also have some pretty good invented words. 'Sími', Old Norse, 'wire' for 'telephone'.) The Dutch just calls adjectives 'bijvoeglijke naamwoorden', something like 'attaching noun'. A conjunction is a 'voegswoord' which seems too similar to me.

All right, in Ælfric's 'Grammatical Terminology' a few are given. He borrows 'casus' for 'casus','part' for 'pars', and 'declinung' for 'declinatio'. He does calque 'tid' for 'tempus' (tense) and 'nama' for 'nomen' (noun), and 'dæl' for 'pars' (part of speech). I do like his 'dælnimend' for 'participium' (participle) and 'betwuxaworpenes' for 'interjectio', and 'samodswegend' for 'consonans'. I'm sure if I perused this book more I'd find some better ones.

And aye, 'leid' in Lallans is pronounced a bit like /li:d/.

@Holy Mackerel ... That was my first thought too. However, this is a nowadays brooking or an old word. OE had other words for reputation like tōtalu. When I first saw gefrain, I thought it had something to do with an inquiry (frain = question).

Gefrain is being brooked as noun for "reputation" which seems to be from the adjectiv shape. Or forhaps it was calqued from Old Norse. There are many words that are being taken out of either OE or ON. Most are being brooked rightly or somewhat rightly. A few are just odd and this is one of them. With most words, an upspring is marked but with this one, no one seems to know where it came from so I'v been digging umbe. I first saw gefrain with the meaning of reputation, renown ... tho others only say reputation; some brook it insted of honor. No one seems to brooking in the wit of the OE noun ... knowledge information ... but rather back-shaping (back-forming) the new meaning from the old adjectiv.

gefrǽge, -frége, es; n. An inquiring, a knowing, knowledge, information, hearsay:
-- Míne gefrǽge - in my knowledge, as I have heard, as I am informed,

ge-frǽge, -frége; adj. Known, renowned, celebrated, remarkable, noted, famous, notorious, infamous: -- Hæbbe ic gefrugnen ðætte is eástdǽlum on æðelast londa, firum gefrǽge - I have heard tell that in eastern parts there is a land most noble, renowned among men.

--Ic eom folcum gefrǽge - I am known (renown, famous) among people.

--Wæs úre líf fracuþ and gefrǽge - Our life was wicked and infamous.

also gefrége: --Lǽt ðé on gemyndum hú ðæt manegum wearþ fira gefrége - Keep in thy mind how that was known among many men

Icelandic has frægn which means famous/renown.

But hey, sometimes folks brook a word wrongly and it becomes the norm.

Gefrain I would imagine comes from 'gefrignan', 'gefrægn', 'frugnon', 'find out' from 'frignon' 'to ask'. This must be related to German 'fragen' and Dutch 'vragen', both 'to ask'. This is a very Teutonic idea of 'finding out through asking' rather than 'discovering'. This is how word spreads of fame and glory.

Yes, the Scots ... being further away from the Norman-French Overlords ... kept a lot of words. Many words are marked in the wordbooks as either obsolete or Scots!

Theod alreddy seems to be in widespread brooking. I'v seen leod tho not as much but there are no grounds (grunds?) for not also brooking leid for dialect or something ... Is it said with a long ī? ... līd?

I spent a few hours hunting down the root of "gefrain" ... meaning renown, reputation ... that is being thrown about. While it looks like "frain" ... question, it's not akin ... at least not directly. It seems to come from OE "gefræge" an adj.

Icelandic has "frægn" without the 'ge'.

As you're talking about 'wale' I might bring up the Scots language. Here in Glasgow you sometimes hear it spoken and its vocabulary is a hoard of obsolete Old English and Middle English words. I've got a Scots - English / English - Scots dictionary which is full of modern, spoken forms of Anglo Saxon, Middle English, and Old Norse words.

Hence we get 'leid' for 'language' [Middle English 'lede', from 'leden', 'leoden' (language), from Old English 'lēoden' (national language, literally, of the people) from Old English 'lēode', (people)] which could stand in for 'dialect'

and 'thede' for 'country', 'region', 'province', 'people', or 'kind' [Middle English, from Old English 'þēod' (nation, people, tribe, race), from Proto-Germanic 'þeudō' (people, nation); akin to Modern English, 'Dutch', Modern German 'Deutsch' (German), Middle Dutch 'diet' (people), Middle High German 'diet' (people, folk, nation), Norwegian 'tjod' (people, nation), Icelandic þjóð (people, nation)] which could stand in for 'ethnicity'.

Well we do find seldseen brooking of the en-/em- forefasts in OE ... enlīhtan (enlighten), emtwa (in two). We also have the in-/im- set. There are folks who don't want to brook en/em owing to the wordbooks all credit the forefasts to French/Latin. They ignore that the forefasts stood in OE as well.

Wale as a choice is a good find! It also means a dead body, slaughter. So I guess yu hav to take it in context. ME has walen as "to choose".

There is also kire - choice, preference, chosen, elite, custom, customary, free will, decision, selection. But I think it is only a noun.

Old word-string > "Will and Wale", it means having Free Choice, Freedom to Choose.

More about WAL(E) "to choose; choice; select"

http://books.google.com/books?id=poJBAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA366&dq=I+wale+that+one&hl=en&ei=rvvaTqvbCsnrgge6-NW3CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=I%20wale%20that%20one&f=false

@jayles: "what happened to waehlen?"

Wale, Waled, Waling (mainly Scottish and North English today) "something that is selected as the best; choice", "to choose; select". WALE can be used as a noun, adjective, and verb. See > Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition. One will still find this word in all of the best wordbooks.

1250–1300 ME wal(e) < ON val (ON velja) < PGmc *waljanan (*walan, *walō ) “desire, choice”, akin to will (vb.); Gothic waljan, O.E. willan

"So if Frankish had in- and the French developed en- from Frankish an- doesn't that now make en- Germanic rather than Latin?"

Yes. The Proto-Germanic, Old Latin, and Ancient Greek are all akin to one another, bound by the PIE root.

One has to look at where the word came from, and then give it a name. Here, we are talking about French getting en- from Frankish; so, here en- should be thought of as Germanic. If the French word with en- came from Latin, then we should rightly name it Latin.

In the end, en-/in- in all three tongues are siblings.

So we might use "wielding" instead of government to mean the process of governing,
maybe just "The Wield" instead of "the government" as in "The Russian Wield".
The hurdle is of course that it is not in the dictionary!

We already use "lawmakers" for the people in government, but this doesn't mean the government itself: so .....
beadle, warrantholder, beadledom, swayholder, lawwielding, mightwielder,lawbody,lawwieldingbody,lawmakingbody, swayholdingbody,
oversightbody, guides, warden, lawwarden, guidingbody.
Any other foresets??
We also need words for elections (what happened to waehlen?) and democracy (mobrule is not quite the same, and rule is latinate anyway).

@Ængfolc - Here's one for yur skills. The forefast en- is seen in OE in the word en-līhtan = to enlighten (en-líhtan, in-líhtan, on-leóhtan, on-lýhtan). That's from the B-T Anglo-Saxon Dict) but it is an otherwise seldom seen. (Altho em- is seen a few times as well.)

I read this: Both Latin and Germanic from Proto-Indo-European *en (“in, into”). Intensive use of Old French en-, an- due to confluence with Old Frankish *an- (intensive prefix), related to Old English on- (intensive prefix).

So if Frankish had in- and the French developed en- from Frankish an- doesn't that now make en- Germanic rather than Latin?