“Anglish”

At a boy, Jayles!

@PP, unfortunately the perfect pedant is spouting perfect paranoia and perfect poppycock to boot.

May I pick up your on your comment ''It;s occasional use by some posters in this forum has moved on from what was an amusing diversion to pretentious bigotry'' as I feel it is wildly wrong and one hell of a cheap shot at a diverse gathering of people who are rethinking the structural boons and banes of their current tongue . If you truly had wandered through the posts with any type of open mind then you'd have seen more than an inflow of concerns and fears that language-purging can inadvertently lead to the ugliness of bigotry and xenophobia... however, I wouldn't still be interacting/ tweenlocking with this site if I felt any of the partakers had a right-wing agenda.

English itself in its present guise is only so due to the legacy of linguistic subjugation/ speakly-downbearing by a 5% minority of tyrannts over a 95% population/ folkhood - fact!

I'm afraid matey, that casting such aspersions are tantamount to trolling. So either back up your claim or keep your pejorative remarks to yourself, they've been made before by countless others and bear no relevance to the thoughts and wishes of, I'm certain, all here.

Perfect Pedant: I too was very skeptical for a long while. However I now strive to weed out unneeded latinisms; and I think the outcome is sturdier, more punchy and striking English. I am also more aware of some good newswriters who seem to do the same. Of course there are so many latinate borrowings in today's English it would be foolhardy to ween that we could root them all out, and truly there is no need, save only to write more simply and less pretentiously. (root out, weed out instead of eradicate for instance).

AnWulf: according to the OED, clýsan is a borrowing from Late Latin clūsa.

The weird thing about "deal" is that in the phrase "a great deal of" it seemed to have no meaning, that is it is just an idiomatic left-over; so the old meaning of deal has been lost.
The other thing is that we sometimes use "part" without an article - "part of the problem", whereas German seems to need the article - "Ein Teil des Problems", which somehow makes the "part" countable. There are also phrases like : "take apart", "apart from" (aside from?), and the verb part (cleave, sunder?), depart (leave), partly/in part and so on - which need to be looked at. "take part in" (take deal in ????) is the hardest I think.

G. Wald = E. wold, wald (although now, this word mainly means 'grassland', unforested land, or moor today).

Let us look at how near German is to English, if we write with truly English words:

German: "Ich fahre durch den dicken Wald und das tiefe Tal."

English: "I fare through the thick wold/wald and the deep dale."

I/Ich < P.Gmc. *ik, *ek "name for one's self--pronoun"

fare/fahre < P.Gmc. *faranan "to go, to travel, journey"

through/durch < P/W.Gmc. *þurh "through, by means of"

the/den (accusative masculine singular) < P.Gmc. *sa "that, those, the"

thick/dick < P.Gmc. *þikkuz, *þikkwiz "thick"

wold(wald)/Wald < P.Gmc. *walþuz "forest, woods"

and/und < P.Gmc. *andi, *anþi, *undi, *unþi “and, furthermore”

the/das < P.Gmc. *þat, neuter form of P.Gmc. *sa (see above)

deep/tiefe < P.Gmc. *deupaz "deep"

dale/ T(h)al < P.Gmc. *dalan "valley"

English can still look Germanic, if the speaker wants it to. No outside words needed.

Instead of the word 'foreign', we should bring back elendish, ellendish “foreign” (< O.E. elþēodiġ, elþēodisc "foreign"

Instead of saying "part, portion, allotment", English-speakers should go back to saying 'deal'. The word deal (O.E. dǣl) is from the same root as E. dole (O.E.dāl), Dutch deel, Dan. del, Isl. deila, G. teil, and so on.

"A great deal of pain" = 'A large allotment of discomfort' in non-English.

L. part came into English around 1000 through O.Fr, and at last bereaved M.E. del, dele -- mostly anyway. The words 'deal' and 'dole' are still said in a lot of ways, so it should be easy to bring them back to the fore.

Thoughts anyone?

OE clȳsan (

lefull ... permissible, permitted; allowable, allowed (leave+ful)

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lefull

Words for ravine: chine, dene (dean), gil(l), kloof (clough), thrutch (as a verb, thrutch means to press or push)

Words for valley: dale (broad valley), glen (narrow valley), coomb / comb / cumb (a small valley), hollow (small valley), slade

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Sometimes mistakes work for English. The Oxford Wordbook says: ORIGIN late Middle English: from bone + fire. The term originally denoted a large open-air fire on which bones were burned (sometimes as part of a celebration), also one for burning heretics or proscribed literature. Dr. Johnson accepted the mistaken idea that the word came from French bon ‘good.’

Who knows, had he not thought that it was half-French, he might hav left it out as nothing more than SOP (sum of parts). But since it was half-French, it needed to be put in the wordbook! The lesser known word with the same meaning is balefire.

There are a lot of English words that the etymologists ignore the OE root or that it was alreddy in OE before the French came and merely changed the spelling. I think irre/ire was one. The words close and cloister are two others:

(ME cloos / clos ... erly clus: Wel heo clusden [Otho: tunde] heore 3eten & 3areweden heom to fehten.

Eorð-hus heo hureden..heo cluseden [Otho: clusden] þer wið innen alle heore win-tunnen.

And ME biclosen/beclusen: Swiðe wes þe hul biclused [Otho: bi-closed] mid cludes of stane.)

I'v been shunning "close" for that it is marked as from Old French clos-, stem of clore, from Latin claudere ‘to shut.’

Yet in OE there is clýsan; p. de; pp. ed: To close, shut … Not any byspels given so it might be a LOE borrowing but other shapes seem to hav been about for a long time.

From clýsan one gets beclýsan (ME biclusen) (beclose, inclose/enclose);
To close in, to shut in, to inclose, to shut, to close

clysing / clusung - A CLOSING, inclosure, conclusion of a sentence, a clause, period … stopping; a bar :--
II. an enclosed place, cloister, closet

As well as clys/ clus: An inclosure, a narrow passage, close, bond, prison … Dut. kluis, f: Kil. kluyse: Ger. klause , f: M. H. Ger. klóse, klús, klúse , f: O. H. Ger. klúsa, f: … Maybe from or akin to M. Lat. clusa, clausa: Lat. clausus, pp. of claudere to shut, inclose? … Greek root? … maybe koinobion ‘convent,’ from koinos ‘common’]

cluster: Old English clyster; probably related to clot (Oxfd Online)
clyster, +clystre n. - 'cluster,' bunch, branch

clûstor n. lock, bar, barrier: enclosure, cloister, cell, prison. (O. Sax. klústar, n: Frs. klooster, kleaster: O. Frs. klaster, n: Dut. klooster, n: Kil. klooster: Ger. kloster, n: M. H. Ger. O. H. Ger. klóster, n: Dan. Swed. kloster, n: Icel. klaustr, n: … Maybe from Lat. claustra, pl. n. a lock, bar, bolt. or claustrum?)

The MED (not always reliable) has it as: Clauster, sb. cloister, MD; closter, MD; claustres, pl., S2.—Lat. claustrum (clostrum), whence Icel. klaustr, AS. clúster. Cf. Cloister.

All said and done, "close" is found in OE in all its meanings as in NE. The only sunderness is the that NE notes the French spelling with an 'o' insted of a 'u' (aside from cluster). See that OE 'y' (ü) could eathly be the same as French 'oi' (ü) and as the right-spelling (orthography) changed from OE to ME (French influenced) then clyster=cloister. Either there is a shared PIE root or an erly borrowing. Either way … close and cloister came into the tung before ME. Only the spelling changed during ME.

Same pattern with so many words … A word stands in OE, but after the Takeover, the Norman-French scribes started putting their right-spelling to English words and, for some unknown reasum, today's wordbooks, like the OED, often don't go past the French spellings unless they can't find a Latin root.

@Ængelfolc, ... ""for what it's worth, apparently they are not considered cognate words. According to Buck, O.E. irre (n.) is from the adjective..."

What are not thought of as cognate words? And, who is Buck?"

The words OE irre and Latin ira are not thought of as cognates. ... Old English irre in a similar sense is from an adjective irre "wandering, straying, angry," [which is one meaning of it] cognate with O.S. irri "angry", O.H.G. irri "wandering, deranged", also "angry;" Goth. airzeis "astray", and L. errare "wander, go astray, angry". [not ira]

Buck, I guess, is an author of a book on etymology.

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Another NE word with "gar" in it, tho somewhat hidden is auger: Old English nafogār, from nafu (see nave2) + gār ‘piercer’. The n was lost by wrong division of a nauger.

"The word german is from Latin germanus but yet I think that it is likely from the Teutonic tribes..."

There is a shroud about the name of my folk. It is not known when or where Julius Caesar picked it up. Some have put forth that the name GERMAN comes from a Gaulish word meaning "neighbor". Others have said that it comes from the Celtic 'gair-maon' "neighboring folks" (see O.Ir. gair "neighbor"; Also maybe from Celtic garim "to shout, noisy".

On the Teutonic side, it has been said that German is from Germanic Gēr (Gar)-Man(n) >> "Spear Man". So, GERMANNI = "Spearmen". If ones takes it from L. germanus, then the meaning would be "true kinfolk; all of the same kind; of the same root". Also from the Teutonic hari, he(e)r [P.Gmc. *xarja-z < PIE *korjo- "war, troops"] + man(n) -> he(e)rman(n) = "Man At Arms; Soldier; Warrior"; maybe said like it was in PGmc. times.

Others have put forth that GERMAN is from an "Usko-Mediterranean" ger[u] "enemy" + ummanu "folk" -> gerummanu -> germman -> german.

Funny enough, Old Norse speakers called Germans "Suðrvegr" (South Wayers, 'Southerners'; see Northvegr "Nor(th)way")

Gár-Denum (pl.) = 'Spear Danes'

SPEAR is good English, too >> O.E. spere < P.Gmc. *spe(r)ri/*sparron

"for what it's worth, apparently they are not considered cognate words. According to Buck, O.E. irre (n.) is from the adjective..."

What are not thought of as cognate words? And, who is Buck?

Here is what I was told:

for what it's worth, apparently they are not considered cognate words. According to Buck, O.E. irre (n.) is from the adjective, which meant "wandering," and is from the root that also produced Latin errare. The sense connection seems difficult and interesting to me, but they compare Old High German irri "wandering, deranged," also "angry."

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Yes, there was an adj. witt of "wandering, deranged" but that was only one witt:

From B-T:
irre, yrre; adj.
I. Gone astray, wandering, confused, perverse, depraved
II. angry, enraged, wrathful, indignant :--
And ierre hé hwearf ðonan - and he went away in a rage, Chr. 584; Erl, 18, 25.
Iorra iratus, Rtl. 179, 36.
Hwí eart ðú yrre - Why art thou angry? Gen. 4, 6.

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As long as we're on odd words. I think yu'v touched on this before ... German/germane

The word german is from Latin germanus but yet I think that it is likely from the Teutonic tribes … OE gemæne … common, general, mutual. …
Ðæt hí sceoldon habban sunu him gemǽne - that they should have a son common to them
Ðæt sceal Geáta leódum and Gár-Denum sib gemǽnum - so that there shall be peace to the Goths' people and to the Gar-Danes in general … There was also: gemænelic (general).

Oh and AF, it is a conspiracy, for it it weren't then half of the crap would have dwined out of the language by now. Furthermore, once scholars in the 19th hundredyear realised that they had falsely been trying to make English conform to Latin, then if theyd really wanted they couldve started to undo some of the nonsense... but they didnt. Twats.

***There are thousands of words that are put in books as coming from French, Old French, and/or Latin that are really Germanic. Loft academicians are mainly to blame. They thought Ænglisc too low-brow, boorish, and unworldly -- which is not true!***

Sometimes Aengelfolc, I think you're reading pages from my brain. Afreshing to hear someone with the same feelings and mootings as myself. That's twice in a row now, AF, third time's a hattrick.

"I'm not a conspiracy buff. There must be some witcrafty (logical) reasun as to why OE irre/yrre is overlooked." Yes, there must be a wise whyfor...or maybe not. There are thousands of words that are put in books as coming from French, Old French, and/or Latin that are really Germanic. Loft academicians are mainly to blame. They thought Ænglisc too low-brow, boorish, and unworldly -- which is not true!

The question was put to me: Why is that so many others ... like the OED ... don't even mention OE irre/yrre?

It's not like yrre wasn't noted ... It was ... a lot! It is found in OE translations of the Bible ... Beowulf. For that matter ... I would guess that there was a Frankish shape of it as well so even the upspringing of it in French could be Frankish or a blend of Frankish and Latin.

We find "irre" in the Ormulum, c1200. So I'm at a loss as to why the MED doesn't list it. Insted, the first infare is c1300.

I'm not a conspiracy buff. There must be some witcrafty (logical) reasun as to why OE irre/yrre is overlooked.

About the word IRE:

ire, yr, adj., 'angry,' 18597. For irre < OE yrre, possibly influenced by Fr. īre (whence NE. ire). Matz is doubtful: "afr. ire, oder steht es für irre, ags. yrre, woneben afries. ire sich findet?" NED reports no occurrence of ire before 1300. SOURCE: page 5, "French words in Layamon", Modern philology, Volume 4 by Modern Language Association of America - Victorian Literature Group (1907)

"But we should have eagerly seized on the opportunity of pointing out that ire is a perfectly good English word, cognate with the Latin īra, but not derived from it." SOURCE: Page 720, Saturday review of politics, literature, science and art, Volume 35 (1873) by John Douglas Cook, Philip Harwood, Walter Herries Pollock, Frank Harris, Harold Hodge

"A single example may suggest something of that variety and affluence by which the speech, once so rude and impotent, was being made ready for the enlargement and diversified conceptions of the great masters: wrath and ire(1) came over with Hengist; the Danes brought anger; the French supplied rage and fury; the Latin indignation; the Greek choler; and we now, it may be added, confer this sense on passion." SOURCE: Pages 295-296, Development of English literature and language, Volumes 1-2 (1899)
by Alfred Hix Welsh

While I do not think Mr. Hix's thought is right about his take on English, he does seem to show that ire was known in the homeland before coming over to England. He gives a footnote for ire, that says: (1) From Saxon yrre.

Yrre is even found in "An etymological glossary to the Old Saxon Heliand" by Samuel Berr (pg. 215, 1971). see >> *unmet irri 'immeasurably angry',

"yrre and anræd ageaf him andsware:..." (angry and resolute he gave him back an answer:...) > SOURCE: line 3, Poem of the Battle of Maldon ( abt. 10-11 c.)

Given that 'yrre' was written way before the year 1300 >> "Godes yrre bær" (Bearing God's anger; God's ire he bare) — Beowulf, 711

@Anwulf: Good to know. I don't know, if the writing that was taken out had any references, or was named a Middle English word; if none of those things were there, then I can understand why. Also, the word was written "chevesboren", and I think the Wiki had "chivesborn", which is likely a learned-guess.

Still, it is an English word that needs to be brought back into the fold. Here is another great work that has a full write up of "chevese".

http://books.google.com/books?id=oickAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA331&dq=cheves-boren&hl=en&sa=X&ei=16nLT5vQK4Si9QTemoWuDw&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=cheves-boren&f=false

1275 (Eært þu þenne cheues-boren þat þu wult beon for-loren?) is the last reference that I'v found to chevesborn/chivesborn except for the Anglishmoot and one other forum entry.

The thing to kno about wiktionary is that it breaks English into OE, ME, and English (meaning aft-1500 English). So when an admin says that it isn't English, he means it isn't aft-1500 English. I'v had a few bruising battles over the way they do it but it is the way it is. There are a lot of words that fall into that 1500-1800 year gap that it is hard to find support for ... so words that likely made it that far likely to be listed as ME rather than "English" unless a reference can be found. Yes, I kno ... ME is English ... and that's one of the fights that I'v had but it's their rules.

But even having it under ME is better than not having it at all.

Also, that admin note means that someone took the likely nowadays build of the word from OE with no support. Wikt doesn't let that happen. Yu hav to hav support that the word is truly being noted (three infares/ingangs [entries] in sunder books or a searchable archived website, usenet, or forum by sunder folks [in other words, not from the same person or book and over a span of at least one year] ... googlegroups is one that is acceptable). So, the way to build upstay for an wikt infare it to get out and note the word ... and hav others note the word in groups, blogs, forums that are permanently archived. I can tell yu that the Anglishmoot won't count since it is where words are built.

I say this all the time ... yu hav to get out and note these words to work them into (or back into) the tung and the wordbooks.

cheves-born "born of a concubine, bastard", pg.237, Middle English Dictionary: C.2
By Hans Kurath

http://books.google.com/books?id=vG-EZAjM5RgC&pg=PA237&dq=chivese&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3CnLT9i4Lo2c8QTg6qjsDg&ved=0CE4Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=chivese&f=false

The user that deleted the Wiki entry gave this reason -- "This isn't English. It's a hypothetical construct." How can that be when the word is in a Middle English WORDBOOK?! It is an ENGLISH WORD!

cyfes-boren
; def. se cyfes-borena; part. Born in concubinage, base-born; e concubina genĭtus :-- His cyfesborena bróðor siððan ríxode, se ðe wende to Scottum his base-born brother afterwards reigned, who had gone to the Scots, Homl. Th. ii. 148, 17.

cifes-boren
; adj. Born of a concubine :-- Ortrýwes ciuesdómes, cifesboren perfidi pelicatus, An. Ox. 5042. v. cyfes-boren in Dict.

Both are from the Bosworth-Toller Anglo-Saxon Dictionary

"looks very much like the word 'avast' " Indeed, but they are not the same. AVAST is from the Dutch hou(d) vast (E. 'hold fast').

OFOST > OE. of + noun making ending -ost (-ost is a shape of -est, -ust < PGms. *-ust-) see eaornost (earnest), OE. þēnest "service". The front, of-, is from OE æf (< PGmc. *ab) "away from, of, off, from, out of"

Found OHG irri ... So now it becomes whether irri came from Latin or not.

@chivesborn ... I didn't kenlook/kenseek (research) as to why chivesborn was deleted but I'm guessing that there wasn't enuff historical upstay for it. If one can find it three times in Googlebooks, then it might could be put in again.

Ofost - looks very much like the word 'avast' to me, which has an uncertain etymology.

Ah well, whether the 'chivesborn' page is there or not, and whichever ill-willed little sh#t-for-brains deciding to erase it notwithstanding, it's now been recorded somewhere in the ether, as the title is still there, then that will make it eath for the next contributer/ ingiver.

ofost f. haste, speed, zeal, Æ. adv. -lîce. on ofoste, of(e)stum speedily, hastily.

Here's another odd one: rêoc savage, furious

Doesn't truly seem akin to:

rêocan I. to emit smoke, steam, 'reek,' II. = rêcan ... (rêcan I. pret. 3 sg. rêhte to fumigate, expose to smoke [v. 'reak'] II. = reccan)

rêocende (ê) smoking, steaming ['reeking']

I never saw this OE word before, but I like it:

ofost < speed, haste

grudge (1461) < late M.E. grudgen, gruggen, grutch (1225) variant of gru(c)chen (1200) < AF grucher < Old French gro(u)c(h)ier < Germanic (maybe from Old Norse); akin to MHG grogezen "to howl, to complain, cry out"

@Gallitrot ... FYI, the chivesborn wikt. infare (entry) has been deleted.

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I am writing another sci-fi short-tale and I needed a word for data ... kenbit(s) (Ken=knowledge + bit) ... kenbit for datum and kenbits for data. It fits and it's short.

Oh re. 'grudge' I yeasay that it sounds far too Germanic/ Thedish/ Almain... and funnily enough there is an OE verb ' gruncian' which means 'to desire', now i'm sure you're as aware as I am that many words over time have flipped meaning, and seeing as desire and holding a grudge are lingering states of emotion then I'm hedging a bet on this not being a million miles off the mark.

I think you have to say English as an intelligibly separate and sunderly tongue from Lower Saxon/ Anglian is when it is likely fair to say the clock can start. And that would be once it started to fuse with elements of Brythonic speech - So I dont see any problem with that being wholly accepted as around the 5th Century.

ire (given as c1300) said to from from O.Fr. ire "anger, wrath, violence" (11c.), from L. ira "anger, wrath, rage, passion," from PIE root *eis-, forming various words denoting "passion".

Either the date is wrong and it came a-rood into English before c1300 or there is a Germanic root somewhere.

Godes yrre bær — God's anger bore — Beowulf, 711.

Begotten shapes:

irringa — angrily
irremōd - angry mood, angry-minded
irreweorc - work done in anger

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grudge - late Middle English: variant of obsolete grutch ‘complain, murmur, grumble’ from Old French grouchier, groucher, groucer, grocer, of unknown origin.

Am I alone in thinking this must hav a Germanic/Teutonic root? German groll; English grunt, grumble

@Ængelfolc, I guess that would hinge on what "English" means. Many still call "Old English" Anglo-Saxon. With the right wordstock, one can still read most Middle English writs but OE/AS is tuff. What makes OE/AS nother from Saxon? I don't kno ... Somewhen someone has to draw a line. Going from OE to ME is fairly clear ... We can see a lot of changes after from about 1200 on (and one can see the other changes from the Norman Takeover til then.

There were Saxon-speaking troops in the Roman Army in Britain after 286 AD ???
With their whanau?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_settlement_of_Britain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittonicisms_in_English

Sorry I wasn't around to witness it all.

So by forbus, today's English is a chivesborn tongue?

One in the eye, I reckon... forgive the pun

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chivesborn

Hey just stumbled across this...don't know who it's by, but it's definitely running with the whole Anewed English/ Anglish theme.

http://www.wordnik.com/words/yeasay

@AEngelfolc, yeasaid! I hate what should be said plainly being put into crap twomeaningness, particularly when it concerns law or criminal acts, or simply the authorities admitting they've made a boo-boo.

A great thing about weeding out borrowings is that it would lessen how much one could hide the truth:

British Airways Euphemism from 2004: "filing a property irregularity report" >> In English, this means that the airline lost one's bags/luggage.

It has been said that English came into being about the year 449. Anyone have thoughts about this? Stephen Oppenheimer has put forth that English may have already been spoken in what is now England before then.

I was watching some re-runs of the TV space-western "Firefly". Some fetching (interesting) word noting.

Bound by law = under arrest
wave = message as both a noun and verb ... as a signal.
>Did you get my wave? ... We got the wave at the Friedlich's. (Episode4-Safe)
> I can send him a wave, see what I can do. (Episode5-Our Mrs. Reynolds)

Commander is mainly noted as a rank (navy) or position (division commander) ... other than that, leader (flight leader, platoon leader) is likely the most common term.

OE had gebōd (gebode) for order, mandate, command ... but no noun form like geboder.

PGmc. *haitanan [*hais(s)iz] “to call, command, summon” >> OE hēht (past of hātan, “to be named, be called”; ME. hight (hoten); also E. hest [hǣs “command”], behest [OE behǣs “vow, promise”]), Low German heten; German heißen, Geheiß; Danish hedde; Dutch heten; and Swedish heta

In German, we have der Feldherr "Commander", der Befehlshaber, der Gebieter, der Anführer among others.

Old English has Campealdor, Wīgfruma, Wīga, Hildfruma, Fyrdwīsa, Hererǣswa, Heretoga (see G. Herzog), among others.

command (noun) : behest (I like this)
command (verb) : can one really use behest as a verb? "bid" seems more like "ask"
commander : leader/bidder seem slightly off the mark; "behester" ????

"OE stocc and stycce are nother (different) words."

Yes, they have two nother meanigs, but they share the same PGmc. and PIE roots.

garrison, abt. 1250 or so

Here's a good word: hella ... from "helluva ... from hell of a lot of" ... means many things ... very, much, a lot of, actually, really ... and has been put forth as a forefast for 10^27 ... Google notes as the forefast for 10^27 ... I think makes the first anglo-rooted forefast for big numbers. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hella and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hella_(word)

Hella was inheld on the BBC's list of 20 words that sum up the 2000-2009 decade.

Anent rime ... it made it to ME both as a noun and a verb (rimen) http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rime#Middle_English. If it made it to 1450, then it might hav made it to erly NE ... that will take a bit digging.

OE also had:
OE rīmboc (rimebook) - calendar
OE rīmcræft (rimecraft) - arithmetic, math
OE rīmtalu - number-tale (from which we get tale as a big number).

About the seemingly -endlic/endlic afterfast = able ... after doing some digging, I think the afterfast is only the -lic. The end/en is part of the word. For byspel, acoren (a-chosen) - pp of aceosan (a-choose) + lic = acorenlic = eligible, worthy of choice.

acumen (a-come) + lic = acumen(d)lic = possible, tolerable
acumen(d)licness = possibility

miht (might) + lic = mihtlic = possible

There are many others. But will it work? Well, if we take broken and put the -lic afterfast we get "brokenlic" for breakable, fragile which I think works better than brokenly (tho brokenly stands but means "in a broken manner"). ... OK, I cheated, the word stood in ME ... brocenlic > breakable, fragile, eathly broken or benothinged ... made it to erly ME but then was insteded/besteded by fragile.

Some more French words listed as Germanic roots (but not specific on the rootword) ... garrison (from garir ‘defend, provide’, of Germanic origin) and garret as well. My guess is that they are from the same root that OE gar (spear >>> garfish, garlic) is from. Is there a Frankish *gar that is the root of garir?

French haut (from which we get haughty) is said to come from the Latin altus but I think that's a little shaky. It is at least a blend of Frankish hoh + altus but liken O.Fris. hach, Goth. hauhs, and even Ger. hoch. Maybe it took the final t from Latin altus but I think giving the credit to Latin is a bit of a stretch.

Dance? It says that the end root is unknown. Did Ger. tanzen come from the French word or is that a common root? It's not Latin.

Sorry about the long post ... but I'm lucky to get something to go once ... so I hav to do it all at once. And sometimes it twofold posts.

That's cool about the ON word slipping into Algonquin. If it hadn't been for the Little Ice Age ... and some internal Viking politics ... we'd likely be speaking a dialect of ON!

OE stocc and stycce are nother (different) words. Stocc made it thru as stock but stycce > ME stucche/stuche, stiche, steche ... didn't make it thru Early NE.

One also asks for a "piece" of gum ... hanging on the shape.

"New" old words that barely made it into ME before being shoved aside:

openlic > public

gewunelic (also iwonelic) > ordinary, common, usual (Ger. gewöhnlich) ... same root as "wont/wonted" (from OE gewunod).
> also in OE was wunelic … adj. wonted, usual, accustomed

gemanelic(h) (also gemanlich, imænelich) > common (Ger. gemein) ... I'v also seen "meaner" in very old writs meaning "common" ... "the meaner man" ... the common man tho it wouldn't mean that nowadays!

lomlic(h) > frequent

missenlic > various, manifold, different, diverse
missenlicnes(se) > variety, diversity, difference (I didn't see this shape in ME, only in OE.)

John 3:16 "for God so loved the world..." ---> OE "God lufode middaneard swa þæt he sealde his ancennedan Sunu, þæt nan ne forwurðe þe on hine gelyfð, ac hæbbe þæt ece lif."

Grk. Kosmos in OE was written middan(ġ)eard "the World; middle land; middle Earth"

""wer" is still in "werewolf" I think."

Yes, you are right! English still has: PGMC. *weraz "man" ---> wer(e) "man, husband, hero" ---> world, werewolf, wergild(-geld), were-

Kosmos was written as manasēþs and faírƕus in Gothic.

John 3:16 "for God so loved the world..."
Οὕτω γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον,
If you notice the Greek says "kosmos" which is translated as "world".
(maybe: Thus Theos liked the kosmos..)
"wer" is still in "werewolf" I think.
What one learnt at Sunday School !!!

World O.S. werold, O.Fris. warld, Du. wereld, O.N. verǫld (see Isl. veröld, Sw. värld), O.H.G. weralt, Ger. Welt, Danish/Norw. verden

Ooops....I meant....

"...in about the 15 or 1600's."

ME hay(e), hay-fish (pl. hayen] 16/17c.

NG Hai (-fisch) "shark" < Dutch/MLG Haai < MIsl. Hai < OIsl. Hái "shark, oarlock" < ON Hár "dogfish" < PGmc *hanhaz

Maybe so named by Germanic folks owing to it's angular, hooked trademark dorsal fin.

@Holy Mackerel, Gallitrot:

See here about Xoc & Shark: http://www.mesoweb.com/pari/publications/RT07/Xoc-OCR.pdf

Shark maybe from Xoc, and maybe the only Mayan word in English. The :jury is still out", as they say.

Hey HM,

That night not quite be true, the Old English word for shark seems to survive in North Sea fisherman's parlance as 'hoe' which is the term for a dogfish. Now, very possibly affected by Norse, but considering German has Hai, and Dutch Haai, then I'd have thought the chance of it living on into modern English is fairly likely. There also are fish names like 'Hake', and 'Hagfish' that may still retain some etymology. Although they often give the connection to the word 'hook' then it is pure postulation on their part.

I'd like to bring up the word 'shark' and its mysterious origin. Before the word came into the language any ravenous marine fish, I believe, were known as a 'sea dogs'. I've always preferred this to 'shark' anyway and there are a few species of shark known as 'dogfish' to this day.

There is no proper name for it that I knowe, but that sertayne men of Captayne Haukinses doth call it a 'sharke' [handbill advertising an exhibition of the specimen, 1569]

This from Wikipedia,
"Until the 16th century, sharks were known to mariners as 'sea dogs'. The etymology of the word 'shark' is uncertain. One theory is that it derives from the Yucatec Maya word 'xok', pronounced /shok/. Evidence for this etymology comes from the OED, which notes the name 'shark' first came into use after Sir John Hawkins' sailors exhibited one in London in 1569 and used the word 'sharke' to refer to the large sharks of the Caribbean Sea."

I'd imagine Captain Hawkins' servants were not German-speakers but more likely enslaved natives from the Americas

@jayles

NE rhyme

"number - rime, a "large number" is a tale."
I could not track down "rime" other than meaning "hoar frost". Whence cometh this word?
By the by "case" either "plight" or "byspell" will often fit.

Well, has anyone thought about what one says when asking for some chewing gum?

"May I have a 'stick' of gum?"

Not bad, Aengelfolc.

The word stock is actually fair broadly nooted. In its rightnowly shape then I don't see why it couldn't be applied to mean 'piece'.

All about Stück:

NG Stück, Stock

To unaddle a bit more:

BEEF > came into English about 1250-1300 A.D.

All about BEEF:

BEEF > came into English about 1250-1300 A.D.

All about STEAK:

New Eng. Steak (akin to stick, stake, stitch) steikir "is roasting", steikt/steikta/steikti "roasted"; ON stika "rod"; ON stikna "to be roasted or scorched"; ON steikari "a cook"); akin to OE sticca (n.), stician (v.) < PGmc. *stik- (-kon-), *stikkô, *stikkēn "to pierce, stab, prick, to be stuck with a sharp tool" > TZAKESEMEN, NE-TZAKESEMEN: I apply the fire to something, I light up

PIE *lēy-, *lēi-d- "to leave, to let" >>> PGmc. *lē-, *lētan- "to leave, to let" ----> Gothic *lētan "release, forgive"

I forgot to give the PGMC root:

PIE les- 'to lease, collect, pick up' ----> PGmc. *lisan- "gather" (see Gothic *lisan "collect, gather" ----> OE lesan, læs, lǣson, lesen "to lease" ----> New-Eng. lease "to glean, gather, collect, pick up/out"

PIE les- 'to lease, collect, pick up' ----> OE lesan, læs, lǣson, lesen "to lease" ----> New-Eng. lease "to glean, gather, collect, pick up/out"

"Is there a Frankish word along the same line that might be the root or sumdeal (somedeal) the root of OF relesser?"

PIE lē(i)- 'to weaken, leave behind; feeble' >>> Frankish *lāz(z)an "to let, leave behind, allow" (akin to OSax. lātan, OHG lāz(z)an, ON láta, Goth lētan, OE lǣtan, lēt, lēton, lǣten > OFr. lesser, lais(s)ier > O.Fr. re + laisser "to relinquish, quit, let go, leave behind,"

Some say that the OFr. word is a blend of Frankish *lāz(z)an and 'Late Latin' lassō/ lassare...but...I'm not not won over by that thought yet. Anyway, I also think it a stretch to say that the word is only from Latin.

Something I read >>>

"There were also superstratum languages, such as the Germanic Frankish that overran Latin in France only to disappear later on (the language incorrectly became known as 'French'; the ones who really speak 'French' = Frankish are the Dutch)." - p.70, Comparative Indo-European Linguistics: An Introduction by Robert S. P. Beekes and Michiel de Vaan (2011)

This is from a book on Excel: Navigating dialog boxes is generally very easy — you simply click the control you want to activate.

@Ængelfolc ... Here's one for yur etym skills:

release ... Middle English: from Old French reles (noun), relesser (verb), said to be from from Latin relaxare ‘stretch out again, slacken’ (see relax) .

But then we find in OE ... lǣs (likely said as lease) ... often seen as lǣswe (>>> ME leswe/lesewe (pl. leswen/lesewen) >>> NE leasow) ... From Proto-Germanic *lēswō. ... a pasture, field.

From this we hav the verb: lǣswian ... to depasture (set loose in a pasture), graze, feed >>> ME lēswen (to tend to animals in the field) and ME lēsen (said as leasen) ... to set free, to loosen ... to release! ... (lesen can also mean to lose).

"...ant lesen him of pine" ... and release him from pain ... Ancrene Wisse, c1230

Is there a Frankish word along the same line that might be the root or sumdeal (somedeal) the root of OF relesser?

...BTW, "leswe" silver was "lease" money to rent (lease) a leasow.

@Gallitrot ... That was a thought that I had as well but "stitch" has its own etym. and is akin to "stick". I wouldn't be amazed if they were all blended somehow.

Beefsteak is halfbreed. A blend of beef+steak.

Steak is thought to be akin to ON steik ... also akin to stick.

Beef is a Latinate.

Hey Anwulf, to be fair I reckon it would have ended up as the word 'stitch', you know, as in ' not wearing a stitch'. I think this phrase has confused its meaning over time as people infer the meaning thread due to clothing. I suppose the word 'steak' is another likelihood, as beef steak is just a variant of the word piece of cow. I yeasay the modernising of 'stitchmeal' but 'bitmeal' is also a mightlihood and existed in OE, plus it's more atgoly from present words in use.

I just stumbled over this ... I was wondering what might hav been the OE word that matches German "Stück" (a piece) ... Well, it was almost the same: stycce (also sticce) ... piecemeal was styccemælum. ... y=ü in OE.

I found it in ME as stuche/stucche ... pl. is stucchen.

A few cites in erly nowadays English ... stiche.

I'm tired and going to bed soon ... I'll dig some more if my binding to the net will stay up long enuff to do anything!

I just stumbled over this ... I was wondering what might hav been the OE word that matches German "Stück" (a piece) ... Well, it was almost the same: stycce (also sticce) ... piecemeal was styccemælum. ... y=ü in OE.

I found it in ME as stuche/stucche ... pl. is stucchen.

A few cites in erly nowadays English ... stiche.

I'm tired and going to bed soon ... I'll dig some more if my binding to the net will stay up long enuff to do anything!

Ahhh, if only our politicians fit the meaning of Witenagemoot >>> "Meeting of Wise Men"

;-)

Or maybe only Folkrike? ... Or would that be socialism/communism? It's giving me a headache ... I think it is one that needs to be set aside for while til a begeistness (inspiration) hits. Nothing has be solved right away. No need to force it ... it'll find its way.

Witan http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/witan is short for witanagemoot http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/witenagemot , the Anglo-Saxon national council or parliament.

@AnWulf: "reich does hav a negativ air about it which is why I like "for-reich" for "nationalize" better than "for-rike". To me, again philosophically, nationalization is heavy-handedness of gov't. For-, here, can mean both "for" ... as in for the reich ... and the negativ intensifier that the for- forefast often has. It fits."

Again, we are of like mind on this. For-Rike/For-Riken/For-Rikening are great to mean "nationalize".

So, how about a blend of Rikedom and Folkdom? Folkrikedom.

Aaaaand I'm done here. If anybody would like to talk to me, or read my stuff with chatter about the US Civil War and how awful government is, my blog is at: http://rootsenglish.wordpress.com/

I'm pretty sure that parliament would be something like 'wittenmoot' and government just plain 'witten'.

Yes, Reich is an English word in the witt that it is in our wordbooks: http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/Reich So, reich does hav a negativ air about it which is why I like "for-reich" for "nationalize" better than "for-rike". To me, again philosophically, nationalization is heavy-handedness of gov't. For-, here, can mean both "for" ... as in for the reich ... and the negativ intensifier that the for- forefast often has. It fits.

When asked what type of government the American folk were going to hav, by a well-meaning woman, a stern Benjamin Franklin answered, "A republic, madam, if you can keep it."

In my eyen, the Republic was mortally wunded by Lincoln when he invaded the South. Ever since then, it has slowly forbled as the maegan (power) of the federal rikedom has grown, mostly unstopped, ever since. Sadly, it was also Ben Franklin who gave us a hint of a foreboding when he said, "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." ... Which is what we hav today ... neither.

So in my short story of an over-reaching gov't, rikedom fits.

I'v been doing some reading where the word "folkdom" has been noted. It's mostly noted as an oversetting of German "Volkstum" which seems to be a Hitler euphemism for "race". One book gave a meaning of, "It means the Volk way of life, organically integrated within one's own nationality and race ..."

So while I think, as a word, folkdom would be a good calque of "republic", I think it would quickly be linked to "Volkstum" and hav a harmfulness (negativity?) about it. Still, a folkdom (republic) as a kind of rikedom (gov't) fits.

OTOH, the word to govern is itself a Greek-rooted word from kubernan ‘to steer’.

@AnWulf: "It's a philosophical mindset. To me, gov't IS heavy-handed and all the negativs of word reich/rike."

I am with you, but I would rather stay with the wisdom of a Republic and the American Founders Fathers where the God-given rights of each man would be, more or less, shielded from a Rike's overreach. 'Reich/Rike' doesn't seem to mean that, does it?

AnWulf: "BTW, reich is loan to English as well."

Are you saying 'reich' was borrowed from New German into New English?

@Ængelfolc ... Good writ on the upspring of America. Who knows. Maybe when the Univ. of Toronto ends it project to catalog every OE word, there might be hint in there of the word. Some of the traders must hav known about it. Maybe one wrote it down.

-dom — abstract suffix of state, from O.E. dom "statute, judgment" (see doom), already active as a suffix in O.E. (cf. freodom, wisdom); from stem *do- "do" + *-moz abstract suffix. Cf. cognate Ger. -tum, O.H.G. tuom.

-dom |dəm|
suffix
forming nouns:
1 denoting a state or condition: freedom.
2 denoting rank or status: earldom.
3 denoting a domain: fiefdom.
4 denoting a class of people or the attitudes associated with them, regarded collectively: officialdom

As for thiud (which as good as other spellings), there is theod (noted by today's heathens) from OE þeod nation, people [Goth. þiuda a nation, people; pl. the gentiles: O. Sax. thiod, thioda a people; in pl. men: O. L. Ger. thiad gens, natio: O. Frs. thiade people, men: O. H. Ger. diot, diota gens, populus, plebs, natio: Icel. þjóð a nation, people; in a local sense, a land, country.]

I think folkdom might bewrite (describe) "republic" (res ‘entity’ + publicus ‘of the people, public'. [folk+dom ... of the folk]). Folkmain would be a calque of democracy (dēmos ‘the people’ + -kratia ‘power’). Main here has the old meaning of power: might and main.

It's a philosophical mindset. To me, gov't IS heavy-handed and all the negativs of word reich/rike. BTW, reich is loan to English as well. I think for-reich (forreich) or for-rike would be a good word for "nationalize" and for-reichness would be "nationalization". I put it in an email the other day and it seems to be understood by the readers. At least no one sent me an email back asking about it.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. — George Washington

Enthralling Thought > rík(i) (P/Gmc. rīk(i)ja) might not be the best word to mean "government": Germanic tribes said reiks, rhix, rik-, to mean a "war-lord" king < one who became the leader of a folk through war. Hence the manifold word meaning of -ric- "wealthy, great, mighty, ruler, king, power(ful), authority, dominion, empire, reign. To give gainsay, Wulfilas, when writing the Christian bible in Gothic, did not write rīk(i)ja when talking about Jesus: "Art thou the King of the Jews?" was written "Thu is Thiudans Iudaie?".- John 18.33 in Gothic by Wulfilas.

The Germanic word for "leader, ruler, king" was Thiudan(s), and meant "of kingly blood". The Germanic folk took Thiudan(s) to mean that their leader was of a godly bloodline; A thiudan(s) was holy, in a way, to his theod.

Maybe rícedóm is a bit iron-handed? The ending -dóm means dominion, power, authority, property, right, office, quality, state, condition. So, why not thiud-dóm (see Cyne-dóm a king's power, office, etc. a kingdom). Or, Folkdóm, Leód-dóm, which is more in-line with the ideas of Repbulic and folks ruling themselves?

DID THE VIKINGS NAME AMERICA?

http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/viking.html

Jayles: you should see my family, they're all frekes!

Seriously though, I think something like "body" or a variant might work. Many sentences with "person" in can be slightly rewritten to take anybody, nobody, somebody, everybody, and just body. After all, that's one of the meanings the word used to have, and supposedly does still in Scots. So, "I know a body who play tennis semi-professionally," wouldn't be the start of the zombie tennis invasion! In fact, that sentence could easily take "somebody" as it is, so we see how it fits (albeit roughly) with how the language already works.

"freak" from dictionary.com:
"a person or animal on exhibition as an example of a strange deviation from nature; monster. "
Might be sone misunderstanding when spoken; but I guess that's where the laugh is.

@jayles ... with today's right-spelling (orthography), it would hav to rhyme with freak ... BUT ... in OE and sometimes ME it looks like it would be said as frec or frek. However, freke is the spelling that made it to today's English.

ME freke (n.) Also freik(e, fraik, frake, frekke, freche. Pl. frekes & (early) freken from OE freca. ... (a) A brave man, a warrior, a man-at-arms; (b) a man; (c) a human being, a person; a creature such as a giant, demon, angel.

Go not forthe as a dombe freke ... Book of Courtesy, 1475

I take it that freke and freak have the same pronunciation??
"The Republican primaries give members the opportunity to choose the best freke for the job" ???

The bureaucracy is bumbledom: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bumbledom

@Gallitrot - bishopric/bishoprike/bishop-rike ( http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rike see the 1857 quote) is more of a kenning (compound) than an afterfast. The -ric hides the meaning of "rike" and looks a lot like -ic.

The -lic gives us the adjectiv -ly with a meaning of "like" ... brotherly (brotherlike).

The -lice gives us the adverbial -ly from adjectivs ... greatly.

So we alreddy hav the -ly doing twofold work. The -ic can be from French, Latin, or Greek but, natheless, it is a well-known afterfast. So edquickening -lic in a few words like mightlic doesn't seem out of place to an English speaker. ... And I think it has a better lude than mightly. But folks will hav to work it out to see which one they like better.

Gallitrot: I remember having the same conversation some years ago (like 2005). I argued for -ric at the time, but I remember that Bryan Parry (a great guy) won me over to rike. I *think* the key point was that the sound in -ric only came about through being on the end of a word, and rike was the standalone word. But I can't remember, and I can't find the emails or pages where the discussion took place. I'm happy to have the discussion again if there was an appropriate venue.

On the discussion about state and government and administration: there's clearly a split between the territory, the structures, the possessions, the employees of a country, let's say Canada, and the people who make up the Harper "government", that is, elected people and those whom he appointed, and who will change when a different party is elected. Regardless of what we call them in English, the first is the "rike", and the second is what we're trying to figure out, whether we call it "government" or "administration". Basically, the people who temporarily control the rike.

"Oh and I thought the suffix '-lic' in OE gave us the nowadays '-ly' ?"

It did.

Seeing as we've the suffix ' -ric' at the end of 'bishopric' can't we maintain this spelling? So then 'ricdom' or even 'rickdom'.

Oh and I thought the suffix '-lic' in OE gave us the nowadays '-ly' ?

What I was saying was:

Government (body of bureaucracy) in America = what the British call the State.

Government in British English = what Americans call the Administration.

That's all. One word; unalike takes on the same words meaning and brooking.