“Anglish”

Today's horror words that I had to explain off the cuff: "ethnographic" from Gk ethnos "nationality" and graphein "to write or draw". "neolithic" (Gk) new + lithos (stone)
paleo (gk) I guessed as meaning old. I guess students should learn Greek first too!

@jayles:

I never told Stanmund to learn Latin...I wrote, "You would have to learn Latin..." to truly get the meaning. Also, I was bringing to light that it is beyond hare-brained to have to learn an outside tongue just to understand the mother-tongue of any given land. Yes, the Swiss do study French, English, asf., but not to be able to speak or understand Schwiizertüütsch, or even Hochdeutsch. This, I think, is one of the best "why's" for standing up for true English, and against needless, never-ending borrowing.

It is almost as if you are saying that English is solely at the behest of outsiders, and that their needs are first and foremost....and that is the way it is....How can this be?

If this is so, that is all the wherefore any English speaker needs to get behind Ænglisc.

The Latin-Roman, Gallo-Roman, and the rest of the World can keep on with Global-speak (it's not English), but let the English and those who wish it, to uphold true English. (my soapbox again)

Yes, I am with you about Gaulish/ Celtic words in English. I was dumbfounded to learn that only a few Celtic words live on in English.

Ængelfolc: Oh dear, I must have baited you again! I am most penitent. (a nun-ish word)
"it is beyond hare-brained to have to learn an outside tongue just to understand the mother-tongue " : well put, and I absolutely agree.
Unfortunately of course, non-native speakers, need to learn "Global-speak" for international business and to study at university, as so many courses even in countries like Saudi Arabia are now run in English with textbooks in English.
If native speakers wished to do international business or academic study, they too would need to understand Global-speak. In this scenario Anglish would just be a hobby language for purists. Surely it would be better at least to attempt some albeit minor clean up of the worst borrowings? Indeed many business contracts now use "seller" instead of "vendor", it is just a matter of starting a fashion and the herd will follow.

Ængelfolc: Possibly you are not yet fully aware of how global English is. I have seen companies in Eastern Europe where management speak french or dutch among themselves, the working language is English and the workers chat in their local language. Or an american company further east, working language english, people chatting in russian at work and some speaking the local language at home. Companies in English speaking countries, management language Korean, office language, nominally English, but signs in the toilets to "wash your hands" in eight languages. Go to Amsterdam: you won't hear much Dutch around the city centre. Go to London: English is just for business, so many people chatting in god-alone-knows-what. Real native-speakier English, like Danish, is becoming rarer even in its native countries.

@ Ængelfolc:

Out of that lot, 'wordmark' or 'meaningmark' seem to come over better. Has they stand now, they look and feel way more wielder friendly than the Latinate. They could sweatlessly slip into informal grammar vocab. The Latinate grammar seems downright incomprehensible mumbojumbo weighed next to them.

If it still works in meaning, maybe something like 'wordmark' should be reworded to 'markword' so it follows the existing wrought already on show in English, like: catchword, buzzword, foreword, loanword, crossword, headword, keyword, password, byword, cussword, misword, reword, swearword, watchword.

@jayles

Maybe not for you but without shadow, the needless Latinate grammar in English holds back English speakers from learning foreign tungs. It so so dose, from my ken anyway.

@jayles--- Thanks....I understand all too well about 'Global-Speak English' abroad. It is one of the things that has led me to my work on English. Today, Germany is having a fight in keeping "Anglizismen" (Global-Speak English) out, and forbid Deutsch from becoming 'Denglish'. It's right for Germans to watch over their birth-tongue, as it is right in the same way for the English and the Americans. IMHO.

You are right...clean-up and the withdraw of the worst borrowings would be a worthy errand. Let's start today!

Det være en trist dag, hvis det danske sprog forsvandt fra denne verden!

I meant...and forestalling and forbiding Deutsch from becoming 'Denglish'.

Also, I meant...Det ville være en trist dag, hvis det danske sprog forsvandt fra denne verden!

Rusty Danish!

"...Anglish would just be a hobby language for purists." This does not have to come to pass. It doesn't have to be this way, if one takes a stand.

Stanmund: Frankly the best way to learn a language is go there, live with a family or something (eg girlfriend), get your listening and pronunciation sorted and learn lots of vocabulary. Get whatever work you can to survive, but try to avoid using your own native tongue. I would also by the relevant "teach yourself" book which will explain whatever grammar you need. Japanese, chinese, are really hard as you will battle tonal meanings and the picture-script. But you will learn a lot and it will change your view of the world.

Ængelfolc: I notice that Danish uses "will/would" like English instead of "werden/wuerden"
I know that OE still followed German for the passive but what is the story with will/would?
Secondly, how is it that the so-called past participle is active in meaning when combined with the auxiliary "have", and passive in meaning when used as an adjective? And what about intransive verbs like "swollen", "drunken", "grown-up", is there some mish-mash similar to what happened with the 'ing" form?
Thirdly somewhere I read that the continuous form is a Celtic transplant so perhaps there is bit more Celtic in English than a couple of words.

Wow, jayles...going all academic on the Blog!!! I will handle each thing one by one, I am short on time right now.

Old English 'willan', P.Gmc. *wiljanan, *wiljo "want, wish, desire" asf. (cf. Gothic *wiljan, Old Norse vilja, Old Dutch *willen (Mod.Dutch willen)). It is an irregular verb.

ic wille (present)--> cf. Dutch ik will (present); Modern Eng. I will
ic wolde (indicative past)--> cf. Dutch ik wou (indicative); Modern Eng. I would
ic wolde (subjunctive past)--> cf. Dutch ik woude (subjunctive) Modern Eng. I would

@Yagellsmund (sorry Jayles, been hankering to English-up your Frlike moniker)

Yep, go and live amongst the natives would work with most folk, but not the whole:

/relevant "teach yourself" book which will explain whatever grammar you need/

wouldn't help unless folk can be bothered to wade through a: "A-Z of Latinate grammar terms in English"

Ængelfolc: re will/would: thanks, what really interests me is when and how "will/would" replaced the german werden for future and conditionals. Was it Danish influence or just the Normans failed to learn werden?
The other interesting thing about will/would is how on earth did it acquire the frequentative meaning like "used to " as in "As a child I would walk to school every day".

Stanmund: sorry about the moniker: it was my mother's fault but she's dead now of course.
Teach yourself books are usually quite good at explaining things in simple terms, but you don't have to understand the grammar terminology to speak a language any more than you need it to speak english.

Intransitive verbs are the only English verbs that can use their past participles as adjectives; 'swollen' and 'drunken' are Germanic verb past.parts, like eaten (O.E. geeten) and beaten (O.E. gebēaten), where the original was formed with the "ge-" prefix .

swollen (uninflected adj., past. part of swell) O.E. "genog". Compare Goth ganohs, ON gnogr, OSax genoh, genóg, O.Fris. enoch, Ger. genug, Dutch genoeg -> P.Gmc. *ganakh, *ganōgaz < *ga-(ge-) and *nakh, *nōgaz).

New Middle English Verb Form

Grown Up (early 16th c., past. part. 'grown' of 'grow' ,OE pp. gegrōwen, + 'up') This is form comes from the new type of verb form (two-part or separable verbal expression, use of adverbial particles) brought about at the on-set of Middle English . This verb-type replaced the use of Old English prefixes like "ge-".

English uses has or have with a past participle to describe an action that started in the past and is (or may be) still going on.

"I worked here for two years." (implies no longer working, focused on the past action)/ "I have worked here for two years." (implies still working, focuses on "I", the doer, because of have)

"I had this before". (did have)/ "I have had this before." (having it again)

The 'continuous verb form' (or progressive aspect if one likes) is found in many tongues (Dutch, Welsh, Icelandic, etc), and is widely taken as 'locative'. Only about 4% of all American English, and 3% of British English, sentences contain the progressive (continuous) form today.

"He was a-working" was one way to make the "progressive", but has since fallen out of favor for the form "He is working." (i.e. in the process of).

There is a synchronic, but no diachronic, debate about its the form's origin in English. A guy named Lockwood hypothesized that the progressive form in English was a calque from Celtic, but it has yet to been borne out as true.

OE, among all of the other early Germanic tongues, had the most developed progressive system. Old English use '-ende' (today, '-ing') to make the 'progressive', usually in translations from Latin.

I believe, based on what I have read, that O.E. had the progressive form. It was not used as much as it is today. It isn't unlikely, though, that neighboring Celtic languages may have had an influence, but I currently don't think, based on the evidence, that Old English borrowed this verb form from any Celtic tongue. Here is a good paper on the subject: http://icame.uib.no/ij18/elsness.pdf

@jayles: I see. Abridged....

For the record, 'will/would' is Germanic. German 'werden' is the same as English 'worth' (from O.E. weorðan)---"woe worth the man/day"...asf. Both verbs are from P.Gmc. *werþanan (cf. Gothic wairþan, Old Norse verða, Swedish Varda).

The future in Dutch (zullen (shall, should)) "Het zal niet werken"; in Danish (skulle (shall,should, must) "det skal nok gå bra"; Icelandic (skulu) "Þú skalt sjá!". All Germanic languages (including Gothic) make the future tense with auxiliary verbs.

I digress....

Two things happened to influence the popularity of 'werden': 1. Latin was being replaced as the preferred written tongue and 2) German writers wanted to precisely express tense and voice in German. The verb 'wollen' was used a lot for the future action up until about 1700.

The use of 'werden' as THE future auxiliary happened in Middle High German. The construction WERDEN + infinitve happened around 1800. In Old High German, 'werden' was used mainly for the beginning of an action, state, or happening. In Old High German, 'sollen' (shall), 'wollen' (will, want, desire), and 'müssen' (must, need to, have to) WERE used to express happenings in the future.

In modern German (especially in the South), we do like to use the form: "Ich würde lieber warten" (I would rather wait), "Da würde ich nicht drauf wetten" (I wouldn't bet on it). The words 'would' and 'würde' can have the same usage.

You might like reading a more in depth treatment of this subject. I recommend, 'Modals in the Languages of Europe: A Reference Work' by Björn Hansen, Ferdinand de Haan, and "Die werden-Perspektive und die werden-Periphrasen im Deutschen: Historische Entwicklung und Funktionen in der Gegenwartssprache" by Michail L Kotin.

Now, why 'will' in English and not "werden"? It goes back to...tadaaaa! ACADEMIA and the Church. Old English did not have a separate future tense--- present and future were grammatically one. The reason shall and will became auxiliaries to mean the future came about in the fourteenth century as schools were having their students translate the Latin Bible (due to John Wycliffe's sway). Schools to taught students to use 'will' to translate Latin volo, velle; 'shall' has no Latin equivalent, so it was used arbitrarily for the Latin future tense. And, that is the abridged version of why 'will' is used in English instead of 'werden'.

Viel Spaß!

@jayles: "...will/would is how on earth did it acquire the frequentative meaning like "used to..."

Well, Academia was at it again...messing up the English tongue! The 17th English rules were really (really) bad for 'will' and 'shall', and even worse for 'would' and 'should'. 'Would' and 'Should' are very flexible indeed! There are no hard and fast rules for them.

For the benefit of all: a frequentative word is a word that marks repeated action.

One of the many varied, unregulated uses of 'would' is to mark habitual action. Don't forget "would" can also behave as the past tense of 'will'. The blending of these two ideas allows a sentence like, "As a child I would walk to school every day" to be written and spoken in English.

More about "progressive form" and Cletic: "...neighboring Celtic languages may have had an influence..."

What I mean here is that the I think it is likely that the frequency of the continuous verb form in English was influenced by neighboring Celtic tongues, not the grammar structure itself.

Ich wollte nur meinen Standpunkt verdeutlichen. Danke!

Is there any toponymist in yous two? what would you guess to the meaning of '-loss' found in English placenames?

Endloss, Hertfordshire

and

Ingloss, Norfolk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lost_settlements_in_the_United_Kingdom

Sorry to do it this way, but could 'endloss' work as an Anglish word for some Romance rooted one? In what ways could 'endloss' mean anything? Could an 'endloss' be the result of an 'endgame' ?

German 'endlosschleife' is meaning: /infinitive loop/ or /endless loop/
/endless slip/(?)

what could the root of '-loss' mean? is it a rare spinoff on...

loos
lees
leys
leighs
laws
less(!)
lows

'loos' (as in: Waterloo, Flanders nowadays Wallonia):

Nowadays English = /ing/

Old English = /ende/

so mighten the placename

/Ingloss/

be the modern wroughting of

/Endloss/

?

@Stanmund:

The names could be put together with 'end' + 'loss'.

End: O.E. ende (area, end, bordermark, share of a town, the froward side). It lives on in names like "Boyden-End" in Suffolk, England, and "East End of London", "West End of London".

Loss: O.E. los (to die, destruction, to be lost). Modern 'loss' came from 'lost' (O.E. lēosan). This meaning is in today's word forlorn ( O.E. forlēosan).

or

Less: O.E. lǣs, lēas (free from, without, lacking, bare, not lived on; also small, younger). Compare 'lawless', 'bottomless', 'careless', asf.

End and Ing are not alike. Compare 'Ingthorpe' in Rutland (lmaybe 'Ing's Village'). "Ing" likely means Ing ( Yngvi-Freyr) or the Ingaevones (Folks of Ing, Ynglingas).

Ing wæs ærest mid Est-Denum
Gesewen secgum, oþ he siððan est
Ofer wæg gewat; wæn æfter ran;
Þus heardingas þone hæle nemdun.

* from George Hicks, The Old English Rune Poem, 1705 (from an 8/9 c. writing).

@Stanmund:

The "loo' in Waterloo is from Middle Dutch lo(o) "forest, thicket, woods, meadow", from Proto-Germanic *lauhō (“meadow”). Cf. O.E lēah (lea, leigh, ley, ly) "forest clearing", Old Saxon lōh "forest, grove", Old High German lōh "covered clearing, low bushes", Old Norse lō "clearing, meadow".

It is not related loss or less. Loos is the plural of loo (Old Dutch *lōs).

Hi Ængelfolc, I might of missed it, but what is the meaning of the -loss in the English placenames of 'Endloss' and 'Ingloss' or are you saying the 'loss' bits could be personal names?

The Wiki page of UK placenames is utterly lacking in a lot of placename bits http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_generic_forms_in_place_names_in_the_United_Kingdom_and_Ireland

I knew the 'loo' in Waterloo was Dutch for leigh, ley etc, I wandered if '-loo' was another way for -loss? Funny how "endz" (areas) like Waterloo are somehow officially in Wallonia! Only last summer, I brought some wonderdom and a smile to a sweet Flemish service station worker when I explained to her what I meant by asking 'where the loo (toilet) was'

I hadn't ever picked up that the 'End' in places like West End, Mile End, Crouch End etc, mean 'area' 'share' 'portion' - indeed it fits in to the latest generation of London youth's use of 'endz' when talking of their area/neighbourhood, so 'end' to mean 'area' is attested in use by millions. And come to think of it, isn't American Football's END Zone kinda akin to English Association Football's Penalty AREA. To take a saying from football...end to end (exciting) stuff.

Possible Anglish: endtoendered/endendered = excited, excitable (from end to end and influenced by engendered)?

It's far fetched, but maybe the loss in Endloss and Ingloss mean 'waste' so Endloss = 'waste area' Ingloss = Inga's waste?

Coastal erosion in Suffolk = shoreloss in Suffolk

Weathering works in describing land loss and weathered/weatherbeaten in describing surfaces but dose it work in describing a eroded metal bits etc?

@Stanmund:

I do not think that "Endloss" and "Ingloss" come from personal names. I think it more likely that "Endloss" means something akin to "an area not lived on" or maybe "a destructed area" (maybe the village was found after a war?). If "-less" is meant, then it might mean "land that goes on forever (as far as the eye can see)".

In the same way, "Ingloss" could mean "an area without Ing (either Ing cant reach it, or Ing forsook it), or it might mean "an area laid to waste (destroyed) by Ing).

The full name that was in the link was "Endloss-Ditton". "Ditton" (also Dixton) is the Anglo-Saxon word 'dyketon' (O.E. dīctūn, dike/ditch farm,settlement,village) (settlement on the dike or ditch, ditch/dike settlement), in other words, 'towns enclosed by a dike'. See Fen Ditton (Wetland by the/a Ditch/Dike) and Wood Ditton (Woods by the Ditch/Dike) in Cambridgeshire.

I don't think the meanings are any deeper than this. Do you have any writings about Endloss Ditton, other than the Wikipedia link?

@Stanmund: NEW

The surname seems to be from Ingloss Manor near Loddon. The manor of Abby was held by a family with the surname Inglose/ Ingloss. They were from Loddon Inglose (Ingloss), Norfolk. They were knights.

It seems this surname has been spelled 'de Ingelose' (late 12th c), Ingelose (c.1275), Inggelose (abt. 1346), Ingloss, Inglose, Inglosse, Inglos, even Englisse and Inglish. There was a coat-of-arms which was a silver Blazon, a bend between two cotisses (bendlets), and a sable. Further, it had "Gu. three bars gemmels or, on a canton ar. five billets".

See "Encyclopædia of heraldry: or General armory of England, Scotland, and Ireland"
by John Burke, Sir John Bernard Burke for more info.

Good stuff Ængelfolc.

I'm reckoning even with the Englisse, Inglish spellings of Ingloss and their akinness to surnames like Lawless http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawless and Inglis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inglis, that Ingloss (like Endloss) means 'waste area' rather than 'English'

My WILD hunch, is that Ingloss (Norfolk) came under Danelaw, hence 'ing' for 'end', whilst Endloss (Hertfordshire) didn't, and kept it's English spelling for End. Anyway, you spoke something about the 'ing' in nowadays English being 'ende' in old English. For me -loss indeed seems to go towards 'waste'

It still could be from Ley, Lee(?) Lea, Ley, Leigh when thinking of names like End(s)leigh. To make a clearing (ley/leigh), you need to first lay waste (loss) to an end (area).

'Anglo' (Angloss) maybe Latin scribes where influenced by the idea of the 'English waste' of Briton lands?

By the way Ængelfolc, got nothing other on Endloss Ditton nor Ingloss, just happened upon them on wiki whilst googling for lost villages/towns in the UK. They stood out amongst the list for me, never happened upon -loss in placenames before.

@Stanmund:

"Ing", I do not think, is the same as "end". The earliest writing of the surname "Ingelose" (Inge+lose), (Ingel-ose), or (Ing +gelose) doesn't bear that out at all. Cf. the name Ingelhouse/ Inglehouse which is also from Ing(e)loss. 'oss(e) might've been some mispoken form of house (no 'h'). So, Ingeloss (Ingle's/ Ingel's House).

The Old Norse for 'end' (O.E. ende) is 'endir'. So, the Norse (Danes, Norwegians) and the Anglo-Saxons said the word the same way.

I believe 'Ing' is truly Ing (Yngvi, Ingwine), meaning the Germanic god. Ingui(n)-Frēa is O.E. for Yngvi-Freyr, so the way they would have said Ing is the same, too.

Don't forget the Anglo-Saxon Rune Poems first line:

"Ing wæs ærest mid Est-Denum gesewan secgum..." (loosely-Ing was first among the East Danes seen by (English)men).

Even though, Ing being among the Anglo-Saxon pantheon is still in question, the fact that Norfolk was in the Danelaw allows for the thought of Ing in Ænglisc.

@Stanmund:

Another thought......speaking of the Danelaw and Scandinavian sway, maybe the name Ing(e)los(s)(e) is 'ing(e)l + os(s)', where 'Ingel/Ingle/Ingl means "Tribute to Ing" (O.N. Ingialdr) + O.E. os (O.N. áss) meaning 'god, divine, deity'.

So, loosely, "A tribute to the Germanic god Ing".

Ængelfolc: "Intransitive verbs are the only English verbs that can use their past participles as adjectives" ; a bit too all-embracing, I think. "The swept volume", "The preferred choice", "The man chosen for the task"; these are all examples where the "past participle" of transitive verbs are used as adjectives, which are PASSIVE in meaning. The number of intransitive verbs with the pp.used as an adjective is quite small. This is oddity which I was wondering about - the past participle seems to vary in meaning depending on whether used with "have" to from a perfect tense, or used with "be" to form a passive, or as an adjective. Not logical!.
Re will/ would: thanks for the info; modals are quite a difficult area to teach as they have so many diverse, oddball, and overlapping meanings. Romance language speakers are still usually taught at school to use "will" for the future even today. This leads to unidiomatic sentences like "What will you do over Easter?" when they really are asking about your plans. Even when I was at school, we were taught to use shall/should for the first person and will/would for second and third. Quite why escapes me even now. I wish we could go back to the simplicity of will/soll/kann/mag/muss.
BTW the continuous forms ending in "ing" are actually a tribute to a Germanic god.
It is odd how "Academia" is to blame for everything.. or would it more accurately be the church?

@jayles:

As I wrote before, English language rules are bad! They aren't rules really at all, more like guidelines or suggestions. So, yes, my statement was to all-encompassing, rigid if you will, ...a mistake.

Remember, verbs in English can shift their valency around. Intransitives can gain an object, transitives can drop on object. Then, there are ambitransitives, too! It's all part of the fun!

I just learned to roll with it: have + pp (perfect), be + pp (passive)

Academia strikes again....! The church and academia were in league with each other at one time, so I guess they share the blame equally.

"BTW the continuous forms ending in "ing" are actually a tribute to a Germanic god." LOL....powerful gerunds in English we have!

@Ængelfolc

"Ing", I do not think, is the same as "end". The earliest writing of the surname "Ingelose" (Inge+lose), (Ingel-ose), or (Ing +gelose) doesn't bear that out at all. Cf. the name Ingelhouse/ Inglehouse which is also from Ing(e)loss. 'oss(e) might've been some mispoken form of house (no 'h'). So, Ingeloss (Ingle's/ Ingel's House).

Utterly forgot: grass root of any etymology/toponymy - go back and find it's earliest shape. Ingloss(Ingelose) meaning 'Ingle+house' is way more likely to mean 'house' than oss/ose/os etc proposed for some SW French placenames by this website: http://www.vikinginfrance.com/germanic-toponymy.html

Makes me wonder why the French weirdly spell their word for Scotland 'Ecosse' Ecosse - Ecotte, osse/otte = house/cottage/cote/hutt? Ger. Schottland Scothuttland? Ingloss: Inglott/Inglot, Ing's lot of land. Ingel's/Englander's lot of land. You never know.

@Stanmund:

I am with about "Ingelose/Ingloss (Ing's/ Ingle's House).

Scotland in French (L'Écosse) is a French misshaping of the Latin Scotia. French borrowings normally have an e-vowel before 'sp-, st-, and sc- in order to make it easier to say in French: espier from Frankish *spehon, eschew from Frankish *skiuhan, esquire from VL scutarius, escalade from It, scalata, escalope from ON skalpr, escarpe ultimately from Goth. *skrapa through Italian, asf. In French, final 'a' is many times replaced by a final 'e', too.

In this case, "-osse" doesn't mean 'house".

Thanks Ængelfolc, I already knew about the French trend for adding an 'e' before words beginning sp- and other s- beginnings. I was more wondered by the bow (-osse) in Ecosse than the stern, especially with that French websites talking up Aquitaine placenames with -osse/os and other sundries of '-osse' to mean 'house'

@Stanmund:

The '-osse' in Écosse is not a breakable end-word. It is from SCOTIA > E (s) co ss(t) e (ia) > Écosse. Cf. Nova Scotia, Canade (said no-veh skoshia/skosia).

As for '-osse' standing for house with a French ‹h› muet, well English 'house' would be pronounced 'ows'; Scandinavian 'hus' would be said 'oos/os'. Most French 'h' words are said this way (as you may know).

@Stanmund: BTW....there is a 'Thierri d'Ingelhuse' listed in old ecclesiastical works.

@Stanmund: http://books.google.com/books?id=03EUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PT90&dq=inglehouse&hl=en&ei=YbesTdyDOMbDgQfE7eHzBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=inglehouse&f=false

I understand the spelling of Écosse now. Thanks.

Ingellus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swerting

http://books.google.com/books?id=YmPa1bvfH3kC&pg=RA1-PA610&lpg=RA1-PA610&dq=ingelloss&source=bl&ots=jHl3VyTvpw&sig=ay3OdHAY0tfrATQD05cPWDxvPCU&hl=en&ei=BiGtTbL4F5OyhAfU6KyeDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

@Stanmund:

I suggested that in my earlier post: "'Ingel/Ingle/Ingl means "Tribute to Ing" (O.N. Ingialdr)". I used an "i" instead of a "j" for Ingjaldr. So, are you saying that Ingloss means "Ingjaldr's House"?

Do you think (from your link) that Ingloss is the Swabian dialectical of eingelassen (ingloss')?

Ingloss (maybe really Golosa)? See here http://books.google.com/books?id=TP8HAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA303&dq=Ingloss,+Loddon,+Norfolk,+England&hl=en&ei=2TStTYuuO4fKgQfXvdz7Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=inglose&f=false

Golosa in Italian means 'greedy', but with little 'g', golosa 'delicious'; in Spanish it means 'a gourmand, glutton, one who over indulges with food", also used to describe someone with a "sweet tooth" (one who like confections, chocolate, sugar). Not sure what it could mean in Anglo-Saxon, if anything.

@Ængelfolc

No to both, I think I have gone a bit wild with it all.

Now, back to Ænglisc! Some words that I think should stay in English, even though they come from outside the Germanic tongues:

* Castle: This building was brought to England with the Normans. The English "Burg(h)" was unlike the Castle in form and function.

* Car (maybe from Gaulish karros): It has been in use in the World by all folks since the 5th millenium BC.

* Street (Latin strata): The word originally only meant 'Roman paved roads' in England. They have been a part of England since about 43 AD. The Anglo-Saxons borrowed the word because they had no word for "paved street".

* Lake: Many have tracked this word to L. lacus, but English lake truly comes from OE lacu (P.Gmc *lakō, *lakiz ). A.Gk lákkos and L. lacus share the IE root *lakw- (“lake, pool”) with OE lagu (sea, ocean).

* Coffee (Arabic qahwa): Coffee was drink unknown to Germanic folks until it was brought to Europe from the Ottoman Empire, although coffee has its beginning further East. The first Western European to write about it in 1573 was German physician and botanist Leonhard Rauwolf.

* Sugar (Sanskrit śárkarā): The "sweet salt" was brought to Europe by the Crusaders going back home.

* X-Rays: discovered by Wilhelm Conrad Röntgen (1895). He called them X-Strahlen, but in German they are also called 'Röntgenstrahlen'. It has even become common to say, "Ich bin beim Röntgen." (I'm being x-rayed.).

Who votes for replacing 'juice' (from L. jūs)with the original 'sap' (OE sæp-which is the same as German 'saft')? Or, OE wōs (mod.Eng. 'ooze')?

Who has other words they'd keep? Why?

@Ængelfolc: Anglish as i understand it is a language for "purists". This is fundamentally an emotional decision about who you are - or Anglo-Saxon or Norman-french or Celtic descent - what your heritage is....
... more later...

Kitchen, kiln, kitch, -lock (suffix), toll, etc, a lot of the more older and Germanic looking borrowings can stay. Having said that, the shortening 'kitch' can stay but not the misspelled Deutsch looking 'kitsch' Never been keen on 'castle' don't dig the look of 'schloss' either.

Sap should come to overset 'juice' I could see the organic/homemade food makers/sellers marketing their goods as sap over juice. Juice can come with negegative conotations - additives, garishness, cheap and over processed. Juice doesn't come over as homely a word as 'sap' Apple sap gives off a bigger feeling of 'goodness' and natrualness than apple juice.

How oft is it for German words to be wrought from folk's names has in 'Rontgenstrahlen'? Couldn't a whole heap of English Latinate words be ednewly branded after their inventors etc so we end up with more words like 'watt'

Sapen loss from kegs did bleed now only dribbled tears suckle (service) mouths left in thirst.

Bytheway, hate the words 'quay' and 'Port' and 'bay' 'valley' (even though 'vallen' in Scand.) and 'acre' should be spelled 'aker'

Port crops up in too many places needlessly. Port crushes foresight - too many English 'new towns' over the years crafted or overset as 'Newport' and again in the new towns of Southport and the oversetting of Ellenfoot into Maryport. The new town of Newhaven is a thoughtful exception to the above Victorian portist vandalism. And the port in Stockport, Portsmouth and Gosport are not even from port! To many docks regenerated and then renamed quay. Surrey Docks now Surrey Quays.

Note, a lot of head/headlands along England's southern shores have been renamed 'point' Victorians again I think. Sigh.

Hope Anglish moot knock out some kind of map minus the needless latinisms within maps.

jayles: Anglish as i understand it is a language for "purists". This is fundamentally an emotional decision about who you are - or Anglo-Saxon or Norman-french or Celtic descent - what your heritage is....
... more later...

@jayles

Why do you write "Norman-french" why not just "Norman"?

The Normans spoke French patoise but they were never French back then.

@Stanmund:

"Kitsch" is a German word borrowed into English in the mid 1920's, so why should it be Anglified? It is spelled the same even in French and Italian.

"Kitch" was an shortening of kitchen. It won't do. If one were to Anglify it, it would be 'kitsh' to follow the way it is said.

I am with you on 'port'. English has great words to mean port: harbor, haven, wharf, dockyard, boatyard, and others. 'Quay" is one of the few Celtic words in English. Are you sure you would throw it out? "Bay" is from Iberian. There are even less of these words than Celtic. You'd sure make Dr. Oppenheimer and Brian Sykes most sad getting rid of this word! HAHAHA!

Acre must be spelled right. Yes!

What is Old Norse 'vallen'? Valley and related vale are straight-up Latin. The Old Norse word for valley, from what I know, was 'dalr', from the same word as English 'dale' and German 'Tal'. In Swedish 'vallen' is a plural for 'embankment'.

What is wrong with Schloß? It is kin to English slot (to lock with a bolt), and Danish Slot 'castle'. It's a great West Germanic word. The words mean the same thing, but are used differently.

What about fortress?

"Castle" is the name of something not like an English Burg(h). Should we stop using the word sushi, and just call it "Japanese Raw Fish'?

Stanmund: yes I meant Anglo-normans or whatever you call William's mates and offspring.

To continue with the issues:
1) Target market: who is Anglish for? Not for the globish, nor for the Welsh, nor for the Scots, nor for the Fitzwilliams, de Mounceys, Maundervilles, Abbots and Sextons and the like. Nor for those with red haired forefathers who descend from Celts. Nor for any of the latest immigrants to England or the USA. No, it is just for the Godwins and those whose ancestry is unsullied with not a drop of non-Germanic blood. Hmm might not be too many of those who are truly English too. Most people would think Anglish is barmy... you have to be a sort of linguistic person to appreciate it. So is it for the common herd??
2) Channel: No point in producing a product if you can't get it to the target market. How is this to be done? Yes it was done with Hebrew in Israel, but that means teaching it in schools, and one would need a hard groundswell of public backing to achieve that.
3) Premise: Anglish is built on the premise that it is easier to understand. It ain't necessarily so. "Forechoose" or "forecarry" is no more intelligible than "prefer" and definitely more unfamiliar. I have just watched a trainee English teacher flounder to explain the word "defeat", (even though "feat" was on the same page!) "Overcome" , although more English, does not make it easier, as the students didn't know that word either.
4) Downside: with English the mongrel as it is, native speakers can easily learn most non slav European languages.
5) Intelligibility: I have alway supposed that the purpose of language is to communicate with someone. Ever time I see Anglishers using brackets and global English to explicate what they mean, it proves that Anglish is partly ununderstandable to the common man. That's just not good enough.
6) Solutions: I am quite happy to use forestall instead of prevent, but flounder to find something for "overgeneralize" - I just got allembracing, (or all encompassing). People really don't have the time to checkout Old English or frankish when they just want to exprime an opinion. However "overgeneralize" has plainly become English with an English prefix, so why trhrow it out because general is latinate? I checked the Moot and all they suggest is some unintelligible OE word that no normal person would ken.
So no point in using that! No we need a set of criteria that would Anglicize English as far as possible without compromising intelligibility, and acceptibility to the world at large. That would mean I think accepting quite a number of Norman words like "point" which are used in phrasal verbs, like point out, outpoint, and have become totally anglicized. On the other hand we would need in schools to encourage the use of forestall instead of prevent. But it would be hard work to change "submit" and "Notify me when new comment is posted" as there is so much french in business speak.

finally a recent report in England stated that William's mates and offspring were still ten percent better off on average than Saxons.

And finally finally while we all squabble over the language, the chinese, saudis, japanese, or someone are busy buying up the countryside, and cities, and former Viking settlements like Ingloss.

@jayles:

The reports meaning is not the same as what you put forth. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1372919/Social-mobility-slower-medieval-England.html

"Surnames which indicated nobility and wealth in medieval times are still richer even today, research has suggested." This is the whole meaning...not Norman wealth weighed against Saxon wealth.

"...those with 'rich' surnames left estates worth at least 10 per cent above the national average, and also lived three years longer than the average..."

Take heed, it did not say Norman or French surnames. Nor does it say "above folks of Saxon blood". They did give a few Norman surnames (Darcy, Percy, & Baskerville) as examples, but so what?

BASKERVILLE (Norman Boscherville) is a Frankish-Latin mishmash. Fr. boschet (dim. of Bois, Bosc > VL boscus > Frankish *bosk, meaning small bush) + ville (L. villa, meaning settlement, town).

Everything is "suggested", but not borne out, much less the truth. It's rubbish.

"...while we all squabble over the language, the chinese, saudis, japanese, or someone are busy buying up the countryside, and cities, and former Viking settlements..."

I have one thing to write: Der Träger der Kultur sei die Sprache.

Thought stirring reading (link in German only): Das Schrifttum als geistiger Raum der Nation by Hugo von Hofmannsthal

http://www.zeno.org/Literatur/M/Hofmannsthal,+Hugo+von/Essays,+Reden,+Vortr%C3%A4ge/Das+Schrifttum+als+geistiger+Raum+der+Nation

One can learn a great deal about a people from the state of their language. Language is not so trivial a thing at all. If a peoples language becomes extinct, so does their culture, and often, so do they.

Ængelfolc: I must be halfway extinct then: at my local shopping mall they still speak english at the bank, postoffice, and one of the three supermarkets. Throughout rest of the mall - and this in a country where the official language is still english - the signs and labels are only in Chinese, korean, maybe japanese, vietnamese. Same if you take a bus, buy real estate, in the local library, the churches. The changeover took less than ten years.

Ængelfolc: Thanks for correcting the report on weath and names. The following seems odd:
'Such names indicated a descent from Anglo-Saxon nobility, who came to England after the Norman Conquest and are found in the Domesday book of 1086."
Surely the "Anglosaxon nobility" were already in England BEFORE the conquest?

Ængelfolc: /Kitsch" is a German word borrowed into English in the mid 1920's, so why should it be Anglified? It is spelled the same even in French and Italian/

/Kitch" was an shortening of kitchen. It won't do. If one were to Anglify it, it would be 'kitsh' to follow the way it is said/

I led myself up the garden path and fluffed up owing to 'kitch' and 'kitsch' being mentioned in the same breath: My bad again: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=kitsch&searchmode=none

Ængelfolc: /what is Old Norse 'vallen'? Valley and related vale are straight-up Latin. The Old Norse word for valley, from what I know, was 'dalr', from the same word as English 'dale' and German 'Tal'. In Swedish 'vallen' is a plural for 'embankment/

I mistook Nordic 'vallen' placenames to be cognate to 'valley' and 'vale' And that like in the UK, 'vallen' (valley/vale) lives (mostly orally) alongside 'dale' Might of got the wall(s)/walled embankment meaning in 'vallen' if 'vallen' had been spelt '(w)allen' and English 'wall' had kept its meaning of 'embankment' more strongly.

Ængelfolc: /What is wrong with Schloß? It is kin to English slot (to lock with a bolt), and Danish Slot 'castle'. It's a great West Germanic word. The words mean the same thing, but are used differently/

Guess I couldn't ever get my head around the fact that there seemed to be no English kithborne cognate to the German word for castle 'Schloss' but now I have been made aware it's the English word 'slot', I take back my grumblings. Indeed, 'slot' to mean 'castle' as an everyday word in English is not impossible. Consider the tradition in the UK of landed lords building 'follies' mainly suggesting castles and towers in looks, and oft for no other use other than decoration. Why couldn't someone like an artist or the Anglish moot get lottery funding to celebrate St Georges day and get a rich land owner to commission a newbuild castle folly at the bottom of their estate.

In other words:

If I was awash with sterlings (that word can stay) and lots of land (to mark St Edmund, Cuthbert and Aldhelm's day FOR EVERYONE through English history and architecture) I would give backing to a 'follylike' newbuild castle with modernist streaks. The heading of the project would be: 'Standmund's Slot' to mean: (Standmund's Castle). The folly's doors would hint at the Castle's name by being crafted with emphasis on the door's 'slots, bolts and locks' This would give some meaning to folk that 'slot' means 'castle' in the Stanmund Slot name. 'Slot' would hitch onto words like: 'lock up' in meaning a building (prison, garage). I would also build a clump of worker's dwellings which would latter be set into a selfstanding village called: Stanmundslot which the Ordinance Survey would have to mark on their maps. Hopefully the trend spreads and the meaning of 'slot' to mean 'castle' spreads, maybe start a building firm speciallising in building 'Slot follies' up and down the land for the wealthy.

@jayles: ""Such names indicated a descent from Anglo-Saxon nobility, who came to England after the Norman Conquest and are found in the Domesday book of 1086."
Surely the "Anglosaxon nobility" were already in England BEFORE the conquest?"

Yes, the first Anglosaxon nobility was in England before 1066. The above is merely saying that the names (Darcy, Percy, Baskerville, and others) came from Normandy. The fact that the writer used "Anglosaxon nobility" is not 100% right, but to me it'll do. Anglo-Norman nobility would have been more right.

Most of the "Anglosaxon" noble class was "Anglo-Norman" by 1086. The truth is borne out in the Domesday Book showing only 8% of English lands were owned by Anglosaxon Thegns with Anglosaxon names. Some of the Thegns may have taken Norman names to fit in. The Domesday book also shows that Duke William owned 20% of English land, the Church owned 25%, and the greatest followers of Duke William (all were not Norman btw) owned almost 50%.

Those that got a "lion's share" (25% of English lands) were: Bishop Odo de Bayeux (he was also the earl of Kent!), Count Robert de Mortain (1/2 brother of Duke WIlliam- they had the same mother), William fitz Osbern (he was over the Flemish division of William's army), Roger of Montgomery, William de Warenne (grandnephew of Gunnor and Duke Richard I or Normandy), Bishop Geoffery de Coutances, and Geoffery de Mandeville.

The Thegns that lived after 1066 had it rough. Most of them fled to Flanders, North to Scotland, or went East to become Varangian bodyguards

So, is it any wonder that folks with an Anglo-Norman name may have had family behaviors passed on to them to help them succeed, even into today? Look at the "wealth families" of the World. They keep their riches by teaching their children the family ways to forever grow and keep that wealth.

Forgot, along with 'lock up' 'bolt hole' also means some kinda 'building' See! 'slot' to mean 'castle' 'fortified place' 'country retreat' is hidden within lots of existing words for buildings already.

jayles there are many ways to target and market to folk out there. Follies are full of mirth and playfulness, why not a rural local council commission some kind of modern water tower or insinarator made to look like a castle, and name it 'Slot Bolt Hole' Why not? there is a 'castle Howard', why not the likes of 'Slot Bolt Hole' or a new incinarator playfully named 'Burnover Slot'. Even the likes of: 'Burnslot Castle' or 'Burnslot Incinerator' would start associating 'slot' with 'castle'

Making council and business buildingstock into landmarks can't do any harm. Maybe English Heritage could help by making a law that any new castlelike folly has to have the word 'slot' in it, to distinguish it from 'traditional' historic castles, so has not to act as competitor nor mislead tourists and piss off existing castle landmarks within the tourist industry.

*there are many ways to target and market Anglish to folk out there*

@Stanmund:

"Sterling" is most likely from 'steorra' + '-ling > steroling > sterling meaning "small, little star. Some early Norman coins bore a star.

The Old French 'esterlin' is found in a charter of the abbey of Les Préaux (1084-1104 AD). The OFr word is 'esterlin' is from a Germanic source: Initial French 'e'+ste(o)rlin-(g) or maybe from 'Easterlings' (some etymologists do not like this, though, because it does not neatly and comfortable follow English word development). I can't rule it out, however, since the "Easterlings" (from Northern Germany, were the first-ever moneyers in England.

Anyway, it's a West Germanic word....indeed it can stay!

sandlot
sublot
underplot
wastelot
woodlot
outplot
overplot
dryplot

Along with 'lock up' and 'bolt hole' all these existing words for places also make it a lot eathier for 'slot' (meaning castle) to blend in. Thanks More Words. http://www.morewords.com/ends-with/lot/

@Ængelfolc "Sterling" is most likely from 'steorra' + '-ling > steroling > sterling meaning "small, little star. Some early Norman coins bore a star.

It was good enough already but that makes me feel even better.

Nothing seems wrong, just Interesting that your explanations for the roots of 'sterling' and 'vallen' was made without using obvious contemporary words like '(star)ling' (-ling suffix) nor 'wall' (walled embankment)

@Stanmund: "...just Interesting that your explanations for the roots of 'sterling' and 'vallen' was made without using obvious contemporary words..."

Can you tell me more about what you mean? Why do you find it so striking? It is my belief that the root-word must be shown to see the truth of it.

@Ængelfolc

All I mean, is that I was surprised you didn't write something like:

"Sterling" is most likely from 'steorra' + '-ling > steroling > sterling meaning "small, little star (starling)"

Most folk understand the '-ling' suffix to mean little (goose - gosling etc) but then again, the -ling wasn't always a dim. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=ling&searchmode=none

Maybe it was too obvious to mention, but I wondered why with 'vallen' that you wrote 'embankment' without hinting also at vallen's link to 'wall' (in an embankment sense).

@Stanmund:

An oversight, that's all. It is rather straightforward, though, isn't it? Well, here you are:

Vall (pl. Vallen) from Germanic *wallaz, from L. uallum (likely borrowed in the late 5th c., along with 'street'). Cf. Old English ƿeall (weall, weal), Old Saxon 'Wal', German 'Wall', Dutch/ Frisian 'Wal'.

See: Walton, Wallsend, Walford, Wallmer (in Kent, means 'sea wall'), Anglo-Saxon Wea(l)lingaford

It is another Latin word I think is okay to stay.

Another root for "Sterling":

A much better etymology (I think) is given by Frank Stenton and Michael Dolley in their book "Anglo Saxon Coins". It answers all of the historical and linguistic questions almost beyond strife.

The new coin minted after 1066 was heavier, of a stable weight, and of better metal quality than other money coins. This would have meant that a new special name was needed, like the unchanging integrity of the 'aureus solidus' minted under Constantine.

The thought put forth follows thusly:

L. solidus translated to Gk. στερεός (stēreos, 'hard,stiff, solid'. Cf. austere) < from Indo-Germanic *st(h)er (stiff, rigid), cf. ME/ Scottish dialect 'steer' (13th c., 'strong, stout'), North English dialect ster, stere, steer (strong, stout), from unattested OE *stēre or *stiēre (strong, rigid, fixed).

So, “stere-peninga” (Anglo-Norman penny, so as to distinguish from the coins in France) > "*ster+(l)ing" > "ster(l)ing".

Compare "farthing" (feorða(n)-peninga > feorðling, feorðung > farthing, meaning "feorða (fourth) 'of a' peninga (penny)").

Sterling is first found in writings around 1078 AD. The words 'esterlin' and 'sterilensis, sterilensium' were brought over into Old French/Normaund and Latin from Ænglisc.

See also: (Sterling) by Philip Grierson, in: DOLLEY, R.H.M. (ed.) Anglo Saxon Coins, Section XV. London, Methuen, 1961; “The Weights and Measures of England” (Science Museum, London, 1987) by Professor R. D. Connor.

Even with this it is still a Germanic-English word.

@jayles: "I must be halfway extinct then..."

All it takes, is for 'cultural relativism' to take hold, and for the lead culture to breakdown because of severely misguided guilt or some other such nonsense.

Why should it be wrong for all new-comers to be mindful of the culture of any given land? The short answer? It is not and never has been.

Has this happened where you live?

"...whatever you call William's mates and offspring..."

Guillaume le Bâtard and his lieutenants were mainly Normans, Flemish, French, and Bretons.

The offspring of these 'Normans' were Anglo-Normans > their offspring were English.

"Norman-French" is one of the ways to name the tongue they spoke.

Ængelfolc: Compare "farthing" (feorða(n)-peninga > feorðling, feorðung > farthing, meaning "feorða (fourth) 'of a' peninga (penny)").

So 'farthing' means 'fourth' of a penny, 'firkin' seems to have something to do with 'fourth' too.

Somehow I don't mind 'fourth' but not that keen on the spelling of 'four' wish it was something stronger looking like 'fow' I must have something against any false-cognates with French.

@Stanmund:

'Firkin' means "fourth of a barrel of brew" or "half of a kilderkin". (1400-1450 ferdekyn, ferdkyn, firdekyn, also ferthekin). It is from Middle Dutch *vierdekijn" (vierde 'fouth' + -kijn dim. suffix, meaning "little fourth". A 'kilderkin' (O.Dutch 'kindeken' or 'kinneken', 1570. kylderkin, which is about 81.83 L) was an old English unit of volume equal to half a barrel or two firkins of ale or beer.

"Four" (foh-ur) was 'fēower' in Old English. Cf. Old Frisian fiūwer, Old Norse fjōrir.THe word four is fine. Just say it like an Icelander "foh-ūrr" by deepening the 'u' and rolling the 'r' really hard. Better?

I have to build up some tolerance and stop bullying good English words. Four is back in the good book.

Instead of 'fir sapling' or even 'firling, 'firkin' could (if it wanted to) mean 'a young fir tree' The -kin dim. in names like Wilkinson, Atkinson, Hopkinson, Hodgkinson, Wilkins, is meant to have been gotten from England's nearest continental neighbours the Flemish, so what nowadays English words bare the -kin suffix from old English like 'kilderkin' rather than Dutch. Whatever happened to English's own -kins?

Wilkins, Wilkinson (Anglo-Norman meaning "Son of the Child of William", from the Normanized Germanic personal name William + kin (dim suffix meaning 'child, small, offspring', + son "son of")

Atkinson (Anglo-Scots, from Atkin, Aitken (Scot), Aiken (N.Ireland var. of Aitken) meaning 'little Adam, 'Child of Adam' + son)

Hopkinson (English-Norman from Hobb, Hobbs, Hobbes (pet form of Germanic personal name Robert) + kin (dim. suffix) + son)

Hodge, Hodges, Hodgkin, Hodgkins, Hodgkinson (Anglo-Norman, from Hodge (either from Germanic personal name Roger or the nickname Hocg, Hogge 'hog' +kin +son)

No Dutch here....just Anglo-Norman Germanic names.

That's what I think too Ængelfolc but look...!

-kin diminutive suffix, first attested mid-13c. in proper names adopted from Flanders and Holland, probably from M.Du. -kin, properly a double-diminutive, from -k + -in. Equivalent to Ger. -chen. Also borrowed in O.Fr. as -quin, where it usually has a bad sense.

This suffix, which is almost barren in French, has been more largely developed in the Picard patois, which uses it for new forms, such as verquin, a shabby little glass (verre); painequin, a bad little loaf (pain); Pierrequin poor little Pierre, &c. ["An Etymological Dictionary of the French Language," transl. G.W. Kitchin, Oxford, 1878]

Ængelfolc: "Has this happened where you live?" Immigration issues and cultural swamping are simply side-effects of underlying overpopulation; but yes the current "politically correct" climate does not help. One moment it's Gastarbeiter and then it's muliticulturalism, and we find out, as per Angela Merkel, that it does not work for us. Arthur, Harold Godwin, both had a different approach to immigration!
One has to look the brite side though, at least my bank offers the choice of Cantonese or English when I telephone them. I choose English, of course.
But as time passes it all seems trivial....

Ængelfolc: one approach to Anglish would be to look at the non-Germanic words by frequency. For example "information" and "government" are in the top 3000 words in English. Are we going to change or accept them? (and inform, govern, governor information technology IT information gap, governor-general and so forth - it's not just the word it's the collocations too)

One must not get obsessed by immigration issues, for we all came "out of Africa", except of course those 'Nieanderthaler' living near junction 29 on the 'A' drei.

oops junction 19

The diminutive suffix -kin, of Teutonic origin, is found early in German and Dutch, but there is no trace of it in Old English.

@Stanmund:

The ending -kin does not make any of those you mentioned a "Dutch" name. That is like saying the -(s)son ending makes them Scandinavian. English names are a mish-mash, too, of many bits. If the names formed in England, or the name shape developed in England, then they are English.

"...first attested mid-13c. in proper names adopted from Flanders and Holland..." names the time and lands from which the ending comes from. It does not mean that all names with "-kin" are Dutch, Flemish, or Frisian.

If you find it out of bounds, use the Old English dim. endings -oc, -uc or Old Saxon -ik in its stead.

So, Wilkinson -> Willikson, Willocson; Atkinson -> Atikson; Hodgkinson -> Hodgucson; Hopkinson -> Hopocson.

The endings are still found in 'bullock' (OE bulluc, 'young bull'), 'hillock' (hilloc, small hill), bollocks (OE beallucs), buttock (OE buttuc), and so on and so forth.

I have always liked the -kin suffix. They have always been inbounds. I understand them better now.

Not so much -y (as in bothy, but along with -ling, -ock is another dim. ending I like. Always wondered how to Anglish 'Kitchenette' - 'kitchenkin' seems to work better than 'kitchenock' or 'kitch' (think titch) - indeed maybe 'titch' could be worked as a dim. suffix too: 'a titchmarsh' 'a titchwain' 'a cottitch'!

Look here: The Diary Of C. Jeames De La Pluche With His Letters
By William Makepeace Thackeray _ the word 'cottitch' is used instead of 'cottage' Seems 'cottage' may been English from head to toe: 'cot+titch' cot(tage) = cot(titch)

http://books.google.com/books?id=QbXVW9gX3HoC&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=cottitch&source=bl&ots=UuGgVnYKDP&sig=HQlLYShQmYG3PTiS6IbNwJNzXcI&hl=en&ei=n5CxTcnnBMmO8gPNypyWDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=cottitch&f=false

I know (cott)age and (ham)let are Ger origin but still like better something like 'cottock' for 'small village' or 'cottage'

-ock dim. ending looks like it works best on words twinned with 'll' and 'tt' - maybe 'ilock' for (islet/isle/small island) and 'billock for (small headland)

Well I would love to make Anglish work, and there are good substitutes for some common words like "person"; however there are also some common words such as "use" for which there is no ready allpurpose substitute. I don't believe that remanufacturing words for OE such as "benote" will do; it just makes the whole thing unintelligible to the average reader. Equally, subbstituting "wield", for me at least automatically brings to mind a picture of some Scots chief wielding a claymore, so "you need to wield a screwdriver" suggests impalement to me; it is a matter of connotations. Secondly it is not always possible to remanufacture all the derived words - so user, useful, useless, useable, use (noun) might come out as "wielder", "wieldful", "wieldless" "wieldable" - which are largely unintelligible to someone on the Clapham omnibus. "Workable" is not an exact substitute for useable either. So it's no USE trying to substitute everything.
On the other hand, there are many low frequency words that could just be dumped: this from Wikikpedia:
As with Latinate/Germanic doublets from the Norman period, the use of Latinate words in the sciences gives us pairs with a native Germanic noun and a Latinate adjective:

* animals: ant/formic, bee/apian, bird/avian, crow/corvine, cod/gadoid, carp/cyprine, fish/piscine, gull/larine, wasp/vespine, butterfly/papilionaceous, worm/vermian, spider/arachnid, snake/anguine, tortoise (or turtle)/testudinal, cat/feline, rabbit/cunicular, hare/leporine, dog/canine, deer/cervine, reindeer/rangiferine, fox/vulpine, wolf/lupine, goat/caprine, sheep/ovine, swan/cygnean, duck/anatine, starling/sturnine, goose/anserine, ostrich/struthious, horse/equine, chicken/gallinaceous, cattle/bovine, pig/porcine, whale/cetacean, kangaroo/macropine, ape/simian, bear/ursine, man/human or hominid (gender specific: man/masculine, woman/feminine).
* physiology: head/capital, ear/aural, tooth/dental, tongue/lingual, lips/labial, neck/cervical, finger/digital, hand/manual, arm/brachial, foot/pedal, sole of the foot/plantar, leg/crural, eye/ocular or visual, mouth/oral, chest/pectoral, nipple/papillary, brain/cerebral, mind/mental, nail/ungual, hair/pilar, heart/cardial, lung/pulmonary, bone/osteotic, liver/hepatic, kidney/renal, blood/sanguine.
* astronomy: moon/lunar, sun/solar, earth/terrestrial, star/stellar.
* sociology: son or daughter/filial, mother/maternal, father/paternal, brother/fraternal, sister/sororal, wife/uxorial, uncle/avuncular.
* other: book/literary, edge/marginal, fire/igneous, water/aquatic, wind/vental, ice/glacial, boat/naval, house/domestic, door/portal, town/urban, light/optical, sight/visual, tree/arboreal, marsh/paludal, sword/gladiate, king/regal, fighter/military, bell/tintinnabulary.

Note that this is a common linguistic phenomenon, called a stratum in linguistics – one sees analogous phenomena in Japanese (borrowing from Chinese for scientific vocabulary, and now English), and in Hindi/Urdu (Sanskrit, with many Persian borrowings), among many others.

So we need some pragmatic solutions IMHO.

Here is a list of latinate words included in the top 250 oftenest words in English:
person
use
place
states
general
part
during
govern
course
fact
system
form
program
present
government
possible
group
order
face
interest
case
problem
national
social
president
power
country

It would be really important either to find acceptable-to-everyone insteadwords
or faute de mieux just keep them on .

So let us take an example: "place" eg your place or mine?
Just looking in a thesaurus for words in lieu we have: (as verbs)
put.........norse
rest...........rester in french
lay ..............Ger liegen
leave ..........?? strong verb so Germanic
positon........french
consign...........french consignee
identify.............french
file .....................ah! don't think thats english
locate............latin locus
arrange .............frankish via french
categorise ................not germanic
rank.....................Rang in german?
Now what you're asking everyone to do is choose a Germanic substitute. But how is the layman or woman supposed to know which is which? (No-one is going to spend all day looking them up). People would HAVE to have an automatic Anglish checker like a spellchecker.
I've given you my guesses off the top of my head; have I got them all right? Is anyone but a fanatic going to know the difference? One would need simpler guidelines like no words with latin prefixes or suffixes. C'est tout!

"file" is of course "NO-NO" french when it pertains to a filing system in an office; but "YES-OK" Germanic when one is filing one's toenails.
Straightforward enough!

"So let us take an example: "place" eg your place or mine?"

place (space): abode, dwelling, home (stead), house, flat (O.E. flet)

place (rank): standing

place (job): work(stead)

LEAVE is Germanic.

place (locate): allot (Frankish), store, set, stow, put, park, lodge (Frankish *laubja).

place (order): rank, reckon, group

place (identify): finger, peg, name

People already know these words, They have to choose them over the Latin-French.

As I wrote earlier, 'group' is not a Latinate word. It is Germanic from P.Gmc. *kruppaz.

FYK (For Your Knowledge)

Ængelfolc: your putforwards are better than mine. But how are people supposed to know which are germanic and which are latin? Obvious to you and and everyone in the Sprachschuetzpolizei but not to your average Joe.
Sorry I forgot what you said about group, but that illustrates the problem. On the other hand I seem to have car keys but no car. Anfang Alzheimers?

Or better
"Ongoing and end rating benchmarks need to be made clear and wrapped up." >??

@jayles:

Ich bin Stolz drauf! You are right about folks choosing Latin words without having to think about them. It is how most of us were taught. Think back to when you were learning these "higher" words...you already spoke English and were taught to say this instead of this . In short, when we want to speak a cleaner English, we are trying to undo our educational brainwashing.

The English words that you wrote in stead of the Latinate ones are good choices. Thoughts like "final assessment" are somewhat new, so it is tougher to find other English words to mean the same thing.

"Ongoing and end-rating benchmarks need to be...

...spelled out better and settled upon."
...more straightforward and buttoned up."
...worked out and pulled together."
...straightened out and acknowledged."
...ironed out and set forth."
...better broken down and standardized."
...more thoroughly understood and set up."
...made more understandable and steadfast."
...able to be better understood and set in stone."
...sharpened up and given standing."

I hope this helps you. More later...

@jayles: "...I have been wondering (as English do) whether this is just a hobby, or there is some "real" or "career-related" purpose in your quest?"

Germanic tongues are more than a hobby for me. I am, as of now, an amateur etymologist and Germanic philologist. I am also looking into writing a book or two with very narrow focii with a few Germanic tongues.

Germanic Studies is my thing.

Drawn to a wonderful wall poster of UK sea fish in a chip shop the other day. Poster had all the kinds of fish bearing both their English names and other translations underneath. I was rushing (so might of missed some) but remember:

Icelandic
Faeroese(!)
Norwegian
Danish
German
Dutch
French
Portuguese
Spanish
Italian

Clocked most (if not all) of the English names when lacking a cognate with either the Dutch or German would instead match the Scandinavian ones. Clocked that a fair few fish bore sundry namesakes in English - should be some good English replacements for the likes of /sole/ and /plaice/ etc amongst the regional sundriness of names for fish in the UK. Most keening, was lots of the German translations for the fish ended in '-butt' Got me thinking about the '-but' in 'Halibut' seems that '-but' in English meant any kind of 'flatfish' back then, and still dose in German. Unlike the English, the Germans have (when ever needed) gone out their way to keep their language ordered and German. All flatfish in German seem to have a '-butt' ending. Indeed it would be better if all the names of flatfish in English followed 'Halibut' and ended in the '-but' ending too. Can't hurt to make use of an ending that hints at the ilk of fish. Halibut is already an everyday name, if all the flatfish names followed the O.E. '-but' ending wouldn't it be more scientific and ordered? Anyway, should be loads of other names knocking about to replace: Sole, Plaice, Dab, Turbot(?) Even the Keltic and Norse ones in all likelihood have English namesakes out there. Why not something like: Halibut, Flukebut (Fluke), Flounderbut (Flounder), Brillthbut (Brill), Scaldbut (Scaldfish), Knotbut (Topknot) Might sound dodgy at first, but a lot of fish have more than one name, and Halibut is a household name unlike the others, so sticking on '-but' shouldn't rock the boat that much and should be welcomed by science, fisheries and food sellers. Any replacement for Plaice, Sole and Dab should at least bear a '-but' ending.

Halibut - /large flatfish, early 15c., perhaps from hali "holy" (see holy) + butte "flatfish;" supposedly so called from its being eaten on holy days (cf. cognate Du. heilbot, Low Ger. heilbutt, Swed. helgeflundra, Dan. helleflynder). The second element is a general Germanic name applied to various kinds of flat fishes; cf. O.Swed. but "flatfish," M.E. butt (c.1300), perhaps ultimately from PIE *bhauh- "to strike/

Turbot - either Scand. by way of O.Fr. or from L. turbo

Flounder - either a misshaping of O.F /founder/ or Du. /flodderen/ 'to flop about'

Plaice - /from O.Fr. plaise, from L.L. platessa, perhaps related to Gk. platys “broad,” or from the root of plat- “flat.”/

Sole - /'flatfish' from O.Fr. sole, from L. solea "a kind of flatfish,"/

Fluke - /'flatfish' O.E. floc "flatfish," related to O.N. floke "flatfish," flak "disk, floe" (see flake). The parasite worm (1660s) so called from resemblance of shape/

Dab - /etymology of the name dab is unclear, but the modern English use seems to originate from the Middle English dabbe.[3] It is first recorded in the late 16th century/[

Brill - (believed from Cornish: /brythel/ note Welsh: /brith/)

Topknot - never heard of it before. Name itself seems a bit on the newen side to my earholes.

Scaldfish - name believed to be from looking like it has been dipped in scalding water

Witch - (also Whiff, Megrim) http://www.wordswarm.net/dictionary/megrim.html ?

that should be...

*Turbot - either Scand. or from L. turbo by way of O.Fr.*

@Stanmund:

There are a few etymologists and dictionary that put forth that "turbot" might be from the Latin "turbō" trying to link the shape (a Rhombus) of the fish to the Latin. One has to only look at the root of the word Halibut (Dutch Heilbot) to see this is highly unlikely. Also, most of the sea words in Normaund come from the Scandinavian tongues.

"Turbot" is most likely two words (Germanic compound): tur (thorn (törn) + bot (butt "flat fish"))

German: Steinbutt
Dutch: Tarbot
Swedish: Stenbotta, Butta, Botta (but also Piggvar)

I have learned to ALWAYS question boldly when words are said to be from Latin-French roots. Many times I have been shocked by what I found out by digging past the veneer (from W.Gmc. *frumjan. See?).

Those who unthinkingly aside any meanings in favor of the Latin or French are stand out (usually egg-headed academics of Academia) and are untrustworthy.

I meant, "Those who unthinkingly set aside any meanings in favor of the Latin or French stand out (usually egg-headed academics of Academia) and are untrustworthy.

BTW, most "academics" are Francophiles and Latinophiles.