Pain in the English
Pain in the English

Unpacking English, Bit by Bit

A community for questioning, nitpicking, and debating the quirks and rules of the English language.

Pain in the English
Pain in the English

Unpacking English, Bit by Bit

A community for questioning, nitpicking, and debating the quirks and rules of the English language.

Past perfect with until

I have an issue with the use of the past perfect tense with “until” (and sometimes “before”). Can you please tell me which of these sentences is correct and why?

She hadn’t realized that she was addicted to nicotine until she smoked ten cigarettes a day. (i.e.: Before she smoked that many cigarettes, she didn’t have that knowledge about herself - not realizing/knowing was earlier.) 

or

She didn’t realize that she was addicted to nicotine until she had smoked ten cigarettes a day. (i.e.: First she smoked that many cigarettes, and then she realized.)

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I would argue for a hybrid: “She didn’t realize … until she smoked 10 cigarettes a day.” The smoking of 10 cigarettes a day is a milestone or a marker in this smoker’s process/evolution. The realization happens suddenly. Once the smoker hit this milestone/marker of smoking 10 cigarettes a day, the realization hit her. The word “until” already signals the sequence of the events, and therefore, it is not necessary to use “had”.

In addition, to me "had" serves two functions: 1. as the past perfect, and/or 2. implying the act (verb) is a lengthy(ier) process.

helo

user111655 Oct-27-2022

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I don't think either versuion conveys the meaning well. I would argue for "until she was smoking..."

user111981 May-17-2023

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The correct sentence is: "She didn’t realize that she was addicted to nicotine until she had smoked ten cigarettes a day."

This is because the past perfect tense ("had smoked") is used to indicate an action that occurred before another past action or point in time ("realized"). In this case, smoking ten cigarettes a day happened before she realized she was addicted to nicotine. For more info read comments on https://kingessays.com/. Academic institutions promote research and scholarly inquiry across various fields, encouraging faculty and students to contribute to the advancement of knowledge through original research, publications, and creative works.

Guo Apr-23-2024

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Both sentences are grammatically correct, but they convey slightly different meanings due to the use of different tenses.

1. "She hadn’t realized that she was addicted to nicotine until she smoked ten cigarettes a day."
This sentence says she didn't know she was addicted until after she smoked ten cigarettes. The not knowing happened first.

2. "She didn’t realize that she was addicted to nicotine until she had smoked ten cigarettes a day."
This sentence says she didn't know she was addicted until after she had already smoked ten cigarettes. The smoking happened first.

elizabethwilliams_7 May-20-2024

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She didn’t realize that she was addicted to nicotine until she had smoked ten cigarettes a day.

This is because the past perfect tense "had smoked" is used to show that the smoking occurred before the realization. So, her smoking ten cigarettes a day happened first, and her realization of being addicted happened later.

Both sentences are grammatically correct, but they emphasize different sequences:

"She hadn’t realized that she was addicted to nicotine until she smoked ten cigarettes a day."

This suggests that the lack of realization (not knowing she was addicted) continued until she reached the point of smoking ten cigarettes. The not-knowing came first.
"She didn’t realize that she was addicted to nicotine until she had smoked ten cigarettes a day."

Here, the past perfect "had smoked" clarifies that she smoked the cigarettes before her realization.

irfan7522 Oct-30-2024

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Would removing the negation help with clarity? As in:

"She (only) realized she was addicted to nicotine after/when she started smoking 10 cigarettes a day."

One could add 'only' to emphasize the sequence of events.

Dagmar19 May-15-2025

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The past perfect with "until" is used to express an action that was completed before another event or point in the past. For example, "She had finished the report until the meeting started" indicates that the report was completed https://iraq-bet.com/casino/ before the meeting. This construction helps show the sequence of actions and emphasizes the completion of the first action. On a different note, for those interested in online gaming, Iraq-Bet is one of the top online casinos in Iraq, offering a reliable and secure platform for its users.

JamalAmeen Aug-01-2025

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Lilidala Aug-11-2025

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SeptimusBob Aug-14-2025

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