“Anglish”

þ:

A Republican government and a Democratic government are not the same thing. See here http://capitalismmagazine.com/2003/01/republic-democracy-whats-the-difference/ for a good run down of the two.

"The first European republic after the demise of the Roman Republic in 44-27 BC, was the Icelandic Commonwealth, which also saw the establishment of the world's oldest existing parliament, the Althing. The Icelandic Commonwealth was established in 930 AD by refugees from Norway who had fled the unification of that country under King Harald Fairhair." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic

Wow! Go Iceland!

"Republicanism may be distinguished from other forms of democracy as it asserts that people have unalienable rights that cannot be voted away by a majority of voters."-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republicanism_in_the_United_States#cite_note-4 and John Phillip Reid, Constitutional History of the American Revolution (2003) p 76

"Government" : whether it be a dictatatorship (overlordship) or a kingdom or a democracy,a cabinet or a president, government does not define the form. Besides, like many words, "governement" has two meanings - the body itself (countable), and the process (carry-on,means) of governing - "Good government entails a two-sided dialogue between the executive and the people."
Another instance is the word "crime". We commit a crime (the act).
But we can also talk about the process of crime in general: crime is rife.
There are quite a number of words like this where the meaning changes and there are two forms, one countable and the more generalized meaning is uncountable.

OE ricedom n. Power, rule, dominion: Ðín rícedóm ofer ús ríxie ... usually translated as: 'thy kingdom come' [word for word: Thy rikedom over us govern.]
[O. Sax. ríki-dóm power : O. Frs. ríke-dóm : O. H. Ger. ríhhi-tuom imperium; divitiae : Icel. rík-dómr power; wealth.]

rícenn f. A female endowed with power, a goddess :-- Rícenne Diane
rîcsere m. ruler
rîcsian, rixian to bear rule, reign, govern, tyrannize; dominate, prevail.
rîceter, rîcetere n. force, might, power, rule, dominion, ambition; tyranny, oppression, violence.

ME richedom sovereignty: Cadwalan hefde castles swiðe monieᵹe, and þe richedom stod mære on Cadðwalanes hond.

Rikedom is only the updated spelling of ricedom ... power, rule, dominion ... What is government but power?

So far, none of my beta readers hav asked what rikedom means and I didn't gloss it, so I can only think that it was eath to see in context: All women on the dole or getting help from the rikedom for a child, had to have an IUD put in.

Ængelfolc: the state and its bureaucracy can just be referred to as the "rike". In England there's no distinction made with "state", so I don't see why we should seek one. "Government" in my mind are the elected or appointed people who rule or run the rike for a given time, and that's what I would like to call "rikeholders" or the like.

As for "republic", I'm curious what the difference is between that and "a democracy" (that is, a democratic country, and not the idea of democracy itself). For the latter I would definitely just say "folkdom", that is, something which is of or pertains to the folk, but I know that other definitions of "republic" wouldn't fit within that.

GOVERNMENT < which meaning are we talking about? In the UK, doesn't this mean the PM and Cabinet Ministers? In the U.S., I think this is said to mean the body of bureaucracy.

Old English has many words for "government", which is hinged upon one's meaning. I think "sovereignty" was O.E. dryhtendōm. I would put forth that a word that means the same as Republic should be made. After all, I think most folks would want to be free, and rule themselves.

@AnWulf:

"avant-garde (vanguard) comes to mind ... I kno that guard is of Teutonic roots but avant (advance) looks Latin."

The list seems to have a few of these mixed words; Avant is Latin "front, before, forward, earlier". I don't think that the etym's are shaky... some words may be on the wrong page. The writer did not take out mixed rooted words. Also, it looks as if the writer is highlighting that the word was built over a main Germanic word.

As for COMMON > I think so, too. That is why I called it odd. I saw this here http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/common < maybe there is some new break-through? I can see how L. commūnis would be bolstered by the Frankish word, which had the same meaning and might've been said nearly the same. Keep in mind, it is only now that the great Frankish bearing on French is being found out. I am caught off-guard all the time by words that I thought were L.Fr., but are really misspoken Frankish.

Jayles: your thought of a benchmark is right, and we need to think how words that we say look or feel to the reader. I would take it further and say there are three steps to this:

1) Sniff it out: can a reader even know that it's not "English"? If we can write without them even thinking there is something other about our words, then that's the greatest writing we can do.

2) Work it out: even if a reader can spot some oddness in our words or wording, can they at least work out what is meant? If yes, then that's great, as it means that they don't need a helping hand and can still feel it's "their" tongue.

3) Find it out: the last step is whether somebody can look up a word and find its meaning. Hopefully that will become a softer thing to do once we have a wordbook, but it still speaks against any truly odd words being written. We must learn to make such words only one or two, here and there, in what we write.

As for "rikedom", you're right that it can't be looked up. It's not even a good word for "government". "Rike" means, more or less, "state", and that can be looked up quickly. But the "-dom" ending makes words that are of the meaning of "something ruled over or the state of", such as wisdom, freedom, kingdom, boredom, and so on. "Rikedom" would then mean something like "territory of a state" or its "limits of sovereignty". "Government" isn't among the meaning it could have, but I don't know yet how to say that word.

"Overlordbody" is a thought, but I wonder if there is something better. I know in Old English a new king would "feng to rice", which means "take hold of the kingdom", and we still talk about folk "losing grip on power". So maybe we can work from that, moreso upon the thought that a rike outlasts anybody who runs its, as they're often only there for four or five years. Maybe "rikeholder" would work? Such as "the rikeholders have chosen to go to war come what may".

@Jayles ... in Swedish, the adj. rike is a cognate with English rich ... thus rikedom (Sw) = richdom (En). The noun rike is a cognate with the English rike (sovereignty, dominion, authority ... and the land of such authority) ... http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rike ... Thus rikedom is like kingdom but with rike insted of king. There was ricedom in ME that had both meanings ... wealth and sovereignty. I'll dig about in a bit and see if there is a nowadays English rikedome buried somewhere.

From OE:
frum - primal, original, first
frumlic - original, primitive
fruma m. - beginning, origin, cause; creation; originator, inventor, founder, creator: first-born; prince, king, chief, ruler. on fruman at first

@Ængelfolc ... well, without looking at the list ... avant-garde (vanguard) comes to mind ... I kno that guard is of Teutonic roots but avant (advance) looks Latin. There were a few others.

I can't see where common is a calque of Frankish gemeini + communis ... looks like it is straight from communis and besteaded gemeini.

Yes, "-endlic" often = "-able" ... But "do-andlic" doesn't yet hav the weight of "do-able" but in many words it could likely be swapped. ... walkendlic for walkable? Sometimes the -lic afterfast alone works ... mightlic (OE mihtlic) for possible.

@jayles: "If we wish to make a good push toward de-latinizing English, we need to make the most common latinate words our bullseye."

Yes, you are right. That shouldn't be too hard.

Of the first 100 most said, 96% are from Teutonic roots, 4% from Latin. Of the 500 most said, about 75% are of Teutonic roots, about 20% are Latin, 3%Greek, and 1% are Celtic. There is also one Persian word (check) and one of mixed roots > 'perhaps' (L/Teut.). Also, maybe two are of Etruscan roots instead of Latin.

Funny enough, many Latin words have unknown roots.It might be worth keeping Latin words like Mile (early Germanic borrowing before the year 1000), Pound (early Germanic borrowing before the year 1000), Port (early Germanic borrowing before the year 900), and Street (early W.Germanic borrowing before the year 900), since they are true loans. Also, maybe we should feel something for the five (maybe four--one is iffy) Celtic words, and let them stay.

We can put words that were thrust out back in their rightful stead: City < Burgh; Cause < Sake, Andwork; Large < Stoor, Stour, Muchel; Point < Ord, and so on.

Odd Word Root:

Common < M.E./A.N. < OFr. comun < loan-mark out (calque) of Frankish gemeini, gamaini "common" (see G. gemein, E. mean) + L. commūnis. The Frankish and Latin words share a PIE root and meaning.

"By the way, did English ever have a suffix like '-able' ?"

-endlīc "able to; capable of" (-ende + -līc)

@AnWulf: "Here's an eye-biting (fascinating/interesting) list of English Latinates supposedly of Teutonic upspring: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_La...

Some of the etyms look a little shaky ..."

Which ones do you find shaky?

Benchmarking: as I didn't know what was meant by "frume" I just googled it. I googled "rikedom" and got the swedish meaning (wealth). The true benchmark test should be that the reader can easily find the right meaning (whether on the internet or from a good wordbook). I thought "overlordbody" might be more readily understood than "rikedom".

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ordfruma

Ordfromer - creator (OE ordfruman)

Seeing as Fruma is akin to 'from' then maybe 'frome' really is better for an anewing of the OE word... I know, I know, Im getting besotted...but I'll be hellfired if a word that should be rightly updated gets stopped in its path by a bunch of ignorant kids who have misbrooked it for a 'minge' :/

I like the word 'upspring' but still think that there's a place for fruma and orde in their ordfrim/original meanings... after laughing my way through the Urban Dictionary online then I was aware fairly quickly that on that site no word is hallowed, and nearly every likely variation of a word in English has a double meaning on there. So I suppose we've just got to set about reconditioning words.

Here's an eye-biting (fascinating/interesting) list of English Latinates supposedly of Teutonic upspring: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Latinates_of_Germanic_origin

Some of the etyms look a little shaky ...

@Ceolfrid ... btw, yu're mixing yur right-spellings (orthographies). ... ic thance thee (or if yu hav like þ ... ic þance þe[e]) ... or ik thanke thee. ... Thankie kind of looks like Afrikaans dankie :)

@þ ... I didn't say that I didn't like the yahoo grupe ... It's that I like this better overall. An email grupe is likely better for those long-winded writings.

@Jayles
person - freke http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/freke
part - dole, deal (I forgot where I read that piece might hav Teutonic (Gaulish) roots.
place - stead, stow
case - (hangs on how yu mean it)
point - ord http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ord
company - business
government - rikedom
number - rime, a "large number" is a tale.
problem ... In the end, it is Greek; I think this one likely stays
fact - (hangs on how yu mean it)
use - (verb): note, benote, brook; (noun): noting, benoting, brooking
different - nother http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nother
large - big, great ... enlarge: biggen, embiggen
important - meaningful, (also part of the verb "to reck" ... it recks not: It's not important
public - again, hangs on how yu mean it ... the "public" - the folk. A public park - an open park.

It think I'v said this before. I don't hav a problem with Greek-rooted words any more than I hav with Teutonic words that came thru Latin to English (like farm). The Greeks didn't take over Rome and shove the words down their throats. The Greeks didn't try to take over the Teutonic folk (The Greeks were too busy with the Persians). Greek has consonant clusters somewhat like English (like th) so words like "throne" lude (sound) much like Teutonic words. Greek not only lived thru the Latin onslaught but the Romans borrowed heavily from Greek and Greek was still the lingua franca of the Mediterranean (mark that the New Testament was written Greek even while the rikedom was in Latin and the disciples were erd-speakers of Aramaic). Many of the fore-1066 church words were Greek-rooted that were borrowed into Latin. When there is an eath-swap for the Greek-rooted word, then take it ... half-world insted of hemisphere.

Most of the short Latinates don't truly bother me like case or fact. A few I even like ... like "prey". It's those long ones that are unneeded and giv rise to the wrong mindset of their loftiness.

Bingo! Phrasal verbs truly are the last vestiges/overlings of English, they are where are older words live on in their ordfrim(original) context. Things such as ' it hinges on' almost an evenlike of the German ' das haengt davon ab' and beautifully edholds/ retains the old irregular simple past of hang. Hurray for phrasals, but they need to be regularised to make them standard and easier to learn. Phrasal verbs are f@ckers for outlanders trying to learn English as they've no almeanlaw. Monoglot anglophone linguists love these quirky unlearnables as they falsely believe it makes English unigue and outstanding to other EU tongues - no, it makes it unneedly difficult and muddlesome.

By the way, did English ever have a suffix like '-able' ?

Jayles: you're right on the money with phrasal verbs. I have a draft post for on my blog waiting to be published, but you've beaten me to it! It's such a rich seam in modern English, we just can't ignore it.

1)If we wish to make a good push toward de-latinizing English, we need to make the most common latinate words our bullseye. Thus standins for the following are the most needed in all their meanings and usages: person, part, place,case,point, company, government,number,problem, fact,use,different,large,important,public. These are in the top 100 commonest words today. Then we should trawl through the other common words:
http://www.world-english.org/english500.htm
2) There are over 1500 so-called "phrasal verbs" in todays English. They are not easy to find in a wordbook, but many make good standins. For instance:
work out

Gallitrot: Just email me at the address I gave, and I'll send you S as well! Like a sneak forelook for you, but early feedback for me.

Hey Thorn,

Backpatting of the highest rank to your bones!
Love it when someone with brains-for-brawn bethinks their idea is worthy of putting down on paper. You are right in your hinting that we should all write more, and shape gobbets/titbits of speach in the style we want to see the English tongue wend in.

I would heartily like to read your wordbook, sounds like a deed of strength/ tour de force keep us all posted on its forthgang.

þ:

I am definitely interested, will contact you via e-mail, and promise to provide feedback. Ic thankie the!

Ceolfrid: I don't yet know how I'll send out the draft! Probably announce it on my blog and the Anglish Moot list. But hey, I can send you a little now if you're really interested. Email me at rootsenglish@ymail.com and I'll send you a letter. It'll probably be S as that's the longest one. As I said, it's mostly current English words at the moment, with only a few additions. I hope in time to come to slowly add in new words which I feel have a good chance of being successful.

You have to promise to give feedback though!

þ: These are good tidings, indeed. I have been following this thread for some time, now, and I am very interested in where this idea is going. I am trying (not very well) to use more Germanic words, and less Romance words, in my daily usage, and it would be good to have a resource from which to start.

How will you make your draft known to people? I would very much like to read it when it is available.

Ceolfrid: I'm currently writing a wordbook of all modern English words that aren't FLaG (French, Latin and Greek). It won't contain all the suggestions of everybody, but it will put a floor under the whole project, meaning that we can know every word we can use without having to look them up elsewhere. It will hold some new words, but only those least contentious. Also, it will be a "proper" wordbook, listing not just headwords, but their definitions too, like any other you might find.

I think the first draft should be available for feedback by June, and so something like a finished version a few months later. I've been on with it for years, but it's getting near now.

AnWulf: It's okay if you don't like the Anglish Moot Yahoo Group, that's fine. But this isn't a good place to talk and discuss. It only allows comments in one single thread, and we have no control over how it's organized or what happens to it. I have a blog http://rootsenglish.wordpress.com/ which I've been doing for a month, and I think everybody else should blog too. That way we each have space to get our thoughts down and invite others to comment directly upon them. At this time we need everybody to write in order to build up a critical mass, so to speak, of workfulness and really have the groundwork for a proper community.

Ængelfolc: When I say "naturally" I simply mean replaced with a word that is not FLaG. We can think of third person plural pronouns as a good example, which gave way to ones from Old Norse without FLaG input. Nobody would suggest they be brought back, and there's no need for them to be brought back.

Another such word, and one which has been brought back by some, is "fraign" or "frane". Why? "Ask" won out, but it's also from English, so why replace it? It doesn't matter if our main verb for that action is different from Old English, or that some Old English word isn't in English today. It makes not one bit of difference. So why do this?

We sometimes need to bring back old words when there is no other choice, but it's a big ask for potential readers or speakers to take them up, so we should limit it where we can. We could bring back hundreds upon hundreds of old words, but it makes it less and less likely that anybody outside of a small audience is going to be interested. I want to see us be successful with this, and that's not going to happen if we just make an "Old English Lite".

So, who is compiling and organizing all of these good suggestions into something more easily readable?

I try to note the words on other blogs or my own writings. For byspel … byspel has besteaded example in my wordstock. So even if I am on another blog or forum, I note byspel. I also note either brook, note, or benote for use … hangs on how the word fits. I wrote blog about a mishap that I had about a year ago and noted the word "forbleeding" for "bleeding profusely" … "I was forbleeding" and "I was bedoven in blood". (Bedoven = immersed, soaked … here: covered.)

In a novel I'm writing, only a few days ago I slipped in "samod" for simultaneously. I waiting to hear from my beta readers to see if they bemoan about it or frain the word. I'v been slipping in more words lately and hav been told that I may be putting in too many.

Yu hav to note them elsewhere and be reddy to take the flak for it. There are linguisticians who will tell yu that yu this word or that word is from ME or OE as if yu can't note it. Mark how wiktionary deals the words into "English", "Middle English", and "Old English". Read the Talk for "tocome" ( http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Talk:tocome ) and see how some nitpicky folks instand (insist, from ME insonden) that the word isn't "English" (meaning nowadays English) and that it is "Scots" or "Middle English". These same kind of folks will giv yu a lot of flak on other boards ... or even on other threads here on PainintheEnglish.

@þ ... I hav to gainsay that the yahoo mailing list is "better" than this thread. The mailing list has worth, but I wouldn't say it is better.

1. This thread is open to all. Thus, anyone who comes to Pain in the English can see it. And it shows up on search engines. Yu can do a search on "byspel" and one of the hits will be one of my comments on this thread.

2. For me it's much faster to do a search on this page or the fore-page to find a word or comment.

3. Also for me, my binding to the net on some days is such that I can't post to an email group but I can post here … Then there are days that I can't post to either. There is a fix on the way but it'll be a while. (BTW, fix is a Latinate that I'm keeping. It's in the "Suthren" tung. It's not going anywhere.)

þ > "I must say that I'm not of the belief that just because a word was in Old English it should now be in English. So many words went quite naturally, and many others are so long dead, that there's no point inlivening them."

How do you mean, " so many words went quite naturally..."? Which words? How does one know they went away "naturally"?

Why do you think there is no good end to bring back "long dead" O.E. words? I say they have been asleep for a few hundred years, but not dead.

@Jayles...

On further inspection/ throughsight it seems that the word 'frume' is not widely used as a colloqialism for 'lady bits'...though odd that the word should be used to beshow the 'source' of human/werekin life. There's a place in England called Frome, they claim it hithers to us from OE ffraw meaning fair... I think it's most likely akin to the word 'fruma'.

@Thorn,

Cowley, though suggesting the weird and wonderful edlivening of words long since out of daily use, does firstly suggest in his book that we should broaden the scope of the English words we have already. Use them as an 'ord' of wordhoard and then up their input in our quides/sentences.

@Jayles

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!! Respect!!!

What a bloody tragedy that the word's been coined, as the OE word for origin would indeed give us the modern word 'frume', ah well back to the drawing board with that... but ''frume-friendly' is one helluva a word!

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Frume

I have heard of Cowley's book, but have not read it. It seemed more "what if" than a serious suggestion, but maybe I was wrong? However, I must say that I'm not of the belief that just because a word was in Old English it should now be in English. So many words went quite naturally, and many others are so long dead, that there's no point inlivening them. I would rather first work with what we have, and only slowly look to dialects and recently dead words. That way we have the greatest chance of winning folk over, as then they will see it is only a "kind" of English, and not something otherworldly.

If you do decide to blog or write anywhere else, do let me know. I would also like to read whatever you put on your old blog, if it's still up. As I said, I'm just happy to read what others are doing.

...Naturally, when I say 'English frumefriendly ' then I mean from a purely speech-tongue perspective and not some misguided rightwing idea of hallowed nationalism/ landishness.

Nice one, Thorn! Wonderfully put!

I don't really have a blog, as I started one and got side tracked somewhat by a 'conservation' project / buildwardship undertaking - I do however, have some contact to David Cowley who wrote How We'd Talk If The English Had Won in 1066, he is of likemind with you and I that there is a stead for English to be sheered into a more English frumefriendly shape again.

Thorn: yes; of course the end deemingmark (ultimate criterion) must be whether a middling reader would rightly understand the word within the framework of the utterance.
A big hurdle for most folk is that they are not aware of the roots of the wordstock unless it is uncloudedly latinate in form. So "unreal" and "untouchable" are not openly of latin roots. We cannot await that everyone is true tongue-lover (!!!) like you.

Gallitrot: I agree with you, and I'm rather earnest about working to make this a success. I would truly like to see it have a wider take up. It will take a lot to make that happen, but that's fine, I'm willing to put work into it for quite a while. This is no hobby for me.

Can I ask where else you talk or post about this project? Do you have a personal website, a blog, or something? I'm always looking for new things and new work.

Jayles: I think at the moment (or even far into the future) we should call this not a language, but an "invitation". There are an awful lot of misbeliefs about French Latin and Greek in English, and like you say they're taught even in schools with "proper" words for things. We're basically asking folk to think again about the words they use, but without needfully having all the answers.

As for "abstract", I always think that using a calque should be the last thing we do. It often leads to ugly words, and ones without clear meanings. We should start with the meaning first, say of "a thought or characteristic apart from any physical or specific object", and work from there. We can then say what category of things it belongs to, in this case most likely "thought". So it's a kind of thought, but what kind? Well, it's completely thought and deliberately nothing but! So maybe "utterthought" or "sheerthought" would do, but they do sound a little clunky. Maybe "allthought" is better? I don't know, and I'm not in a position to choose. Like I said, it's only an invitation to think differently about our language, and I can't choose for anybody.

Gallitrot: "But they're Latin/Norman French loving dolts" Why should I not love Norman-French? It has a certain 'je ne sais quoi' ! Besides I have blue eyes and was-black hair,
(truly a now-grey-balding Norman-French bastard), and the "English" education system brainwashed me into Lainate snobbery.
The real hurdle as noted above is to come up with abstract wordstock that is understandable today. For instance: 'abstract': Hungarian has calque from Latin -> 'elvont' meaning 'drawn away'. 'Withdrawn' might be good, but has another meaning today, of course, or perhaps 'unreal' but that's a bit vague?

I bidye to forgive my spelling in the last post, but it's late here... I hope, most of all, it's clear.

Many of the things you've posted I agree with...

I think English should attempt to purge itself of unnecessary foreign loanwords, and copy the Icelandic's idea of creating its own Germanic root replacements for business, government, medical and clerical wordhoard.

If 'sound' truly had roots, as a verb, in OE... then so be it. Like I said, it's a shame that the OED won't record this fore-1066-overtaking input of the word into English. But they're Latin/Norman French loving dolts...and that, as they say, is that.

Re The Anglish Moot, it bothers me, as Ive said before. The Anglish Moot self-kithed that it is only there as a group experiment and sees itself as a hobby object alone rather than a realistic movement for English wordawending. That's not my wont. The difficulty of eftlearning my own language notwithstanding, I thinks it worth it for a truer, better English language... one that is less ambiguous and eath to follow back to basic building blocks instead of oppressively introduced.

The quote comes from the Consolation of Philosophy, which was translated by Alfred, so would date to the late 800s. I don't happen to have a copy of that work, so I'm reliant on the quote from Bosworth-Toller being correct, however they give some other quotes of the word's use. Also, the Middle English Dictionary also gives "sound" as having roots in Old French and Old English.

By the way, the same seems to be true of "market", which is not surprising given it's appearance in so many other Germanic languages. For me this is good as I don't really care about where a word ultimately comes from, only how it got into the language. It's the FLaG words which came in after 1066 which I'm most worried about.

PS Is everybody here at http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/anglish/? That's a much better place to discuss things than this thread.

There is lude: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lude

As þ said, the Latinate "sound" goes back to OE : sōn m. - sound, music [L. sonus] and sōncræft m. - music.

Hé wæs oflyst ðæs seldcúþan sónes … He was pleased with the selcouth sounds/music.

Which is from PIE *swonos, from root *swen- "to sound" (OE geswin "melody, song", swinsian "to sound melodiously, to sing", swinswēg "melody"; ON svanr and OE swan "swan" or "the sounding bird"). The was likely an OE *swin but there is no record of it. See swēg below. (Not to be befuddled with swīn "swine".)

All I can tell yu is that sōn is in both OE wordbooks that I note. I guess it is mightlic (possible - OE mihtlic) that Latinates came in during the years shortly after the Norman-French Takeover. I'd hav to backtrack some the writs and check the dates given for them ... furthermore ... many are marked as "cYYYY" meaning "circa" or "about" so there are often many years leeway. It may not be right, but the way I do it is that if the word is in the OE wordbook, then it is good to go. Otherwise I'd spend a lot of time chasing down writs where they are found and the dates of the writs.

From OE:
(ge)brec n. - noise, sound [(ge)break]

clipol - sounding, vocal: vocalic (from clipian: to speak, cry out, call; summon, invoke; cry to, implore.) [clepe]

cnyll m.- sound or signal of a bell [knell]

dyne m. - noise, [din]

hlem m. - sound

hlēoþor n. - noise, sound, voice, melody, song: hearing
>gehlēoþor harmonious

hlȳd f. - noise, sound [see lude, loud]

hlynn I. m. sound, noise, din, tumult ... II. f. torrent [linn] (liken Scot linn - waterfall)

hwoþrung f. - murmur, a low sound (from hwoþerian to foam, surge ... from hwiþa - air, breeze)

stefn - I. f. voice, sound [steven] http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/steven

swēg m. - sound; noise, clamor, tumult: melody, harmony, tone; voice: musical instrument: 'persona'
> swēgcræft m. art of playing on an instrument, music
> swēgdynn m. noise, crash
> swēge sonorous, harmonious
> swēgendlic adj. vocal, vowel
> swēghlēoþor m. sound, melody.
> swēging f. sound, clang, roar
>> sweger f. mother-in-law [Ger. schwieger; Sp. suegra]
as an afterfast
> ānswēge harmonious, accordant
> bencswēg m. bench-rejoicing, sound of revelry
> hāsswēge sounding hoarsely
> hearpswēg m. sound of the harp
> hereswēg m. martial sound
> hildeswēg m. sound of battle
> morgenswēg m. morning cry
> samswēge adj. sounding together, in unison
> swētswēge agreeable (of sound) [sweet-sound]
> swinswēg melody
> samodswēgende consonantal
> selfswēgend m. vowel

Liken: swīge f. silence
> swīgdagas mp. days of silence
> swīgnes f. time of silence
> swīgian to be or become silent, keep silence, be quiet, still

wōþ f. sound, noise: voice, song, poetry: eloquence.
> wōþbora m. orator, speaker, seer, prophet, poet, singer.
> wōþcræft m. art of speech or song.

...

For matter ... I like "intinga" ... (in-thing) ... In two short-tales I'v written, I'v used "birth-intinga" as "genetic material". I'm being a little loose with the meaning of "intinga" but what the heck, it works.

"...was there a genuine word for 'sound' (as in hearing) in OE, middle English?"

Yes, and it is still in today's English, although it is not often said.

DIN "a loud noise" < M.E. din(e) (noun), Old English dyne, dynn(an) < P.Gmc. *dunjaz; cognate with Old Norse dynr noise, Old High German tuni.

"In this earsplitting din of pop-music, patrons drank more in less time."

"Invigorated by this jolt of misanthropy, he moved sleekly through the din" - Amsterdam by Ian McEwen

The word can be taken to mean only "sound", too.

þ > Would you kindly give the book or writing that shows 'sound' and its fore-bearer's came into English before 1066?

L. sonus shares the same PIE root as O.E. geswin "music, song," swinsian "to sing;" O.N. svanr, O.E. swan "swan," "the sounding bird"

As for "high words", Latin and/or Greek have no higher words to talk about any one thing than English (new or old). The academia have thrust these words upon English, and therefore stilted English from making these "high words".

As Gallitrot rightly says, high words can be shaped anew with lost Old English words, latter-day English, and borrowings from other Germanic tongues. English should look to Icelandic for this.

Cheers Thorn, and no ofthank taken... How interesting that the word was in use before 1066, what date is the OE excerpt/cutout from?

I'm not too worried about the lack of high words, as they can happily be newly created by piecing together older words to make a true guess at what things most likely wouldve become.

However, 'sound' is very important and I wish the OED *spits* would have the balls to record that the word was being used before the downfall at Hastings.

Gallitrot, please don't my suggestion that all the replacements for "sound" are poor as knocking you! I've tried them all out myself—including "ring" which I liked the best—and found them all wanting. The wordstock we have to work with seems to be lacking in many high level categories, with many of the words concentrated at the lower levels. That's understandable, but it sucks when we need to find the kind of word that "sound" is. I've just been thinking about "matter", but it's so high level that it's hard to get something really good. The best I can come up with is "thing" as a mass noun. Not awful, but I would like better if I can.

Anyway as for a quotation, my knowledge of the word comes from Bosworth–Toller. The first quote in that is, "Nán neát nyste nǽnne andan tó óþrum for ðære mergþe ðæs sónes . . . Hé wæs oflyst ðæs seldcúþan sónes", which it references as coming from Alfred's Consolation of Philosophy. The meaning is given as "music or musical sound", from which the modern meaning could easily derive. Indeed, one of the earliest citations in Middle English come from Ancrene Riwle, and the "seon" in one manuscript is given as "song" in another, showing that the meanings were still close.

Well, Thorn, thanks for the ' Most of the current suggestions for its replacement are poor' . I assure you I only put forward words that have genuinely had some meaning and use in the stead of the word 'sound', for instance 'ring' as in the phrase ' to ring true '... but that all aside... could you give me a text example taken from OE English where the word 'sound/ son' was used? Not being awkward with you, just really quite taken aback that the word precedes 1066... that's good news, I love it when a word can be taken back from the supposed slew the Normans gave us.

"Sound" (or at least it's forebear "son") had already been borrowed from Latin in Old English. Even though today's word may owe something to French influence, the borrowing itself doesn't. I don't know how important it is to you to know that it came into the language before 1066, but for me it makes it so much more acceptable. Most of the current suggestions for its replacement are poor, so I'm happy to use it.

I must say 'wrighten' clinks good enough to me. Thereto, the added boon that it is different enough homophonically/ likeloudly not to be confused with 'write' or 'right', as I truly think when trying to bring words back into nooting it is of utmost need that they aren't confused with words already in daily speech... otherwise they just sound odd and don't latch on.

BTW, was there a genuine word for 'sound' (as in hearing) in OE, middle English? I'm fairly positive that although 'clang' is given direct Latin roots in the OED that it must've come through Germanic sources first, otherwise I can't see that Dutch and German would have ' klingen ' (past klang) and ' klinken' alike. As the likelihood of them randomly, and liketimely creating similar meaning and sounds is too far fetched and co-incidental. I've chosen 'clink' as the dictionary gives it an uncertain frume(origin) but relates it to a Low German source, meaning that it was probably already in English and was just never really recorded. I know there were other variants such as ' ring ' and ' clam' (OE hlem as in 'clam up') but it's one of those annoyingly regular words where the Frenchy word has inrooted itself utterly.

To manufacture is truly nothing more than to make or build. "What do they make at that factory?" ... "They build cars."

But if yu're looking for a more "industrial" word, then add the be- forefast (as an intensifier) ... bemake.

Beswink means to produce (sth.) by one's effort or labor; to fashion ...

Anent "wright" ... Nowdays, we can make a verb from it straight away OR we can go the olden way of noting the be- forefast ... bewright ... OR ... by adding the aftfast "-en" (tight > tighten, strenght > strengthen) to get wrighten. If yu want it to be a long word ... bewrighten.

BTW, wrighten did stand in ME: to construct
upwrighten: to erect

To manufacture is truly nothing more than to make or build. "What do they make at that factory?" ... "They build cars."

But if yu're looking for a more "industrial" word, then add the be- forefast (as an intensifier) ... bemake.

Beswink means to produce (sth.) by one's effort or labor; to fashion ...

Anent "wright" ... Nowdays, we can make a verb from it straight away OR we can go the olden way of noting the be- forefast ... bewright ... OR ... by adding the aftfast "-en" (tight > tighten, strenght > strengthen) to get wrighten. If yu want it to be a long word ... bewrighten.

BTW, wrighten did stand in ME: to construct
upwrighten: to erect

To manufacture is truly nothing more than to make or build. "What do they make at that factory?" ... "They build cars."

But if yu're looking for a more "industrial" word, then add the be- forefast (as an intensifier) ... bemake.

Beswink means to produce (sth.) by one's effort or labor; to fashion ...

Anent "wright" ... Nowdays, we can make a verb from it straight away OR we can go the old route of noting the be- forefast ... bewright ... OR ... by adding the aftfast "-en" (tight > tighten, strenght > strengthen) to get wrighten. If yu want to be long word ... bewrighten.

Wright..."Fraught is it not?"

No. Indeed "manufacturer" (one that manufactures) today means a 'company', but is really means "hand-work; made by hand". Wright can have the same meaning, if English speakers wanted it to.

"Manufacturer," meaning "one who employs workers in manufacturing," is from about 1752. The word itself came into English in the late 1560's, and wasn't thought of a s a verb until the end of the 1600's. 'Wright," and its many other shapes, has always been in the English tongue that we know of: That gives it the right of way.

I'd rather say, "Rolls-Royce, car-maker to Her Highness the Queen," and give a nod to Celtic.

We also have "cart-wright" and "shipwright", and "wheel-wright". However "manufacturer" oft betokens a "fellowship" (company?), whereas "wright" oft means the (wo)man themself. One might seldom use the more-than-one ending: Rolls-Royce, wainwrights to Her Highness the Queen. Or : Rolls-Royce are farewain-makers.Fraught is it not?

I like WRIGHT "a person who creates, builds, or repairs something specified" < wryhta ("r" and "y" stead-shifted) < wyrhta worker < from W.Ger. *wurhtjo (see OHG wurhto, O.Fris. wrichta) < P.Gmc. *wurkijanan.

We already have Wainwright (O.E. wægn-wyrhta, "wagon-maker/builder"), which could be said for 'car manufacturer'; Wain < O.E. wægn "wheeled vehicle; wagon."

Thoughts, anyone?

LOL ... No one laught the mistake in my last post. It should read: long story short is that I went umbe (around) a few times.

Let's not forget heoloðhelm m. (heleth-helm) — helmet which makes the wearer invisible.

@Gallitrot ... no pissing contest with Ængelfolc ... I sometimes ask him for etym info and he often puts forth good words.

As for "manufacture": make, build, put together, turn out; shape or ashape(n) ... maybe bemake or amake ... beswink (make with toil) ... to wright or wrighten.

Oddly enuff, manufacture means "to make by hand".

Wayward looking?? ;-0

MANUFACTURE < L. manufact ( L. manu(s) "hand" + factura "a working" < "something made by hand" >> hand-worked, hand-made

One could choose from words like building, making, tooling and so forth. Were you seeking only one word to put in the stead of the Latin?

Right Angelfolk and A Wolf, before this turns into a heroic pissing competition over who can cite the most wayward looking English sources... :P

I want to ask if you can give us a word instead of 'manufacture'... Why? Because I hate it.

@AnWulf:

See my earlier writ on hæleþ:

hæleþ, heleþ, es; m. A man, warrior, hero [a word occurring only in poetry, but there frequently] :-- Gleáwferhþ hæleþ the man wise of mind, Cd. 57; Th. 70, 12; Gen. 1152 : 59; Th. 72, 6; Gen. 1182, 94; Th. 122, 13; Gen. 2026 : Beo. Th. 383; B. 190 : 668; B. 331. Hæleþas heardmóde warriors stern-minded, Cd. 15; Th. 19, 2; Gen. 285. Hæleþ hátene wǽron Sem and Cham Iafeþ þridde the heroes were named Shem and Ham, the third Japhet, Cd. 75; Th. 93, 22; Gen. 1550. Hæleþa scyppend creator of men, Exon. 11 b; Th. 17, 7; Cri. 266 : Cd. 98; Th. 129, 6; Gen. 2139 : Andr. Kmbl. 41; An. 21. Hæleþa bearn the children of men, Cd. 35; Th. 46, 30; Gen. 752. Heleþa sceppend creator of men, Hy. Grn. 8, 34. [Laym. hæleþ, heleþ : O. Sax. helið : O. H. Ger. helid (appears first in 12th cent. v. Graft. iv. 544) : Ger. held.] SOURCE: http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/books/asd/dict-H.html

@Anwulf,

I think a pat on the back and a wee tipple are called for for such sterling work.

I had one of those head-slapping moments the other day. I came across the word "sar" in a ME text that I was reading and anon acknew (recognized) it as the cognate for the German "sehr" (very).

Well, long story short is that I went umbe (a few times) not taking the eathseen (obvious) path. After about an hour of digging, I did the eath thing and found the answer. ME "sar" came from OE "sār" (sore) which is today's "sore".

adverb
archaic
extremely; severely: they were sore afraid http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/sore

It may be archaic to them but it's another Southernism that pedantic teachers hav been trying to stomp out since I was kid. So there ya go ... another word for "very".

Thanks : "heleth" can be found in wiktionary so I think it can be used.
I just bought another farewain : this time it is truly germanic - a "Folkswain" (FauVee)

There are many words or meanings of words that were lost. Tight was befuddled with thight and we lost the noun tight and some of the meanings of tighten:

(a) To entice or incite (sb. to sin, ruin, etc.); incite (sb. that he should do sth.); urge (sb. to do sth.), persuade; also, attract (sb. to oneself); (b) to instruct (sb.), train; discipline (sb.), guide, direct; also, instruct (that sth. should be the case)

(a) To go, come, move; move (toward sb. or sth.); advance (into a country); come (near the ground), descend; also, depart (from a place); ~ tosamen, clash on a battlefield; (b) refl. to make one's way, move, go; (c) fig. to draw close spiritually (to a god), give allegiance; (d) ben tight, to go; come (near to sb.); fig. approach (a set time); (e) impers. hit tight (to) the time, the time approached.

Hæleþ made to ME as both heleth and hathel ( http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hathel ) tho the meaning of "hero" doesn't seem to be there with either.

The thing, we likely overlook too often is that Norman French stopped variant forms of a verb/ word becoming dominant for manifold meanings in English. So as in German where you take the base verb 'setzen' and then by simply adding prefixes you alter the meaning, cf. 'besetzen' 'zusetzen' 'aufsetzen' 'ersetzen' 'einsetzen' 'umsetzen' etc... This basic principle has cost us multitudinous words that would have been so basic in sound that to our overly sesquipedalian/ bigwordwielding modern ears we would laugh them off for their childish sound.

It's out of this premise that I used the word ' beheld' as a noun, for as odd as the article before it sounds the concept is fairly light to follow.

''The man was mighty in shape, steadfastly built, with arms that could stop a speeding farewain (vehicle) in a swipe. No wonder the folk saw him as a beheld, a lodestar in the night - one who could fight and smite for them ''

As Ive said before, I truly believe small passages of text and careful controlling of words in context are the way forward. The academia (thanks Aengelfolc/ Anwulf) is essential in arriving us at an agreed wordhoard which we can use with confidence. But written experimentation is really the only way to solidify this.

It seems that later (maybe from mining and/or compasses ) another meaning came about : the guiding light. I have used "lodestar" instead of "criterion" and "principle" (in the right background). It does sound a little odd as a more-than-one word, though. For instance: "we use three lodestars (criteria, principles) to settle on the outcome". "guidelines" is also useful.
I have used "more-than-one word" to mean "plural" but it is a bit of a mouthful. Anglish wordbook puts forward "manifold" but that really means various or diverse, or the inlet manifold on a car engine. Calquing from German would give us "more-toll".
However "onefold" for singular seems to fit.

LEAD < M.E. leden < from O.E. lǣdan < from P.Gmc. *laidijanan "to go, lead" < P.Gmc. *līþanan "to go, to pass"

LODE < O.E. lād "way, course, journey, road" < P.Gmc. *laidō; akin to LOAD

That reminds me of the Old English word for faker, or imitator: an 'evenliker' would have been the modern equivalent. what a beautifully simple and anfaldy word. God knows how that didn't make it into modern English.

Sorry by 'rhinestone' I meant 'imitation' ; I shall have to find another word....

Beheld might indeed be misunderstood as a noun on occasion, but I'm fairly sure from an audio point of view that if '' a lode was shot ' in a film then there would be a lot of ambiguity and a few shocked faces following such a revelation ;P

''But Gallitrot you are forsooth no rhinestone-warrior when it comes to English!'' Not sure what you mean by this...

...But hell, if 'lodestar' is there in the dictionary and of recorded provenance (kithely frume), then I'm all for it.

The upside of "lodestar" is that it is at least in today's wordbooks, which for me is an weighty lodestar (guiding principle). Of course,I would lief use something akin to 'Held' but 'a beheld' might well not be understood by today's readers, whereas 'lode' does have a set and somewhat befitting meaning, above all when talking about books and films.
But Gallitrot you are forsooth no rhinestone-warrior when it comes to English!

Sikerly, the O.E. lād "way, course, carrying" is, as far as Im aware, the word 'lead' as in leader ? Is the word 'lode' even needed? I reckon leadstar, or leadster ( to differentiate from leader) would afastly(certainly) suffice. Personally I think the word 'a/the beheld' would be a word with a nice nod to the Germanic 'Held' , but more fittingly maintain the idea of a role model or someone admired.

@jayles:

LOL!

OH Ængelfolc you are my LODESTAR !!!!
or "the lodestar of Pasternak's Zhivago was for me not the doctor but Lara herself"
or "General Westmorland , a Vietnam war lodestar, ..."
???

"perhaps "lodestar" for hero ??? "

Well, 'lode' (< O.E. lād "way, course, carrying") is akin to leiten, Leiter (OHG leita) in today's German. Lodestar "guiding star" might do well for 'leader' or something similar.

Hetja is the main word for 'hero' in Islandic, I think.

'Garpur' < Old Norse garpr "a warlike man"; Norwegian > garp (ON garpr) being a common term of abuse for the Hanseatic merchants, meaning 'tough guy' or 'big mouth'; akin to English CARP "complain or find fault unreasonably", "a peevish complaint" < ME carpen to "speak, prate" < ON karpa "to brag" < ON Garpr

perhaps "lodestar" for hero ???
Icelandic has three words depending on context - garpur, hetja,kappi ; wherever they come from.

re Held: Why do you ask? ;-)
I was just looking for a stand-in for 'hero'; but it seems this word has sundry with-meanings, both 'warrior', and 'superstar', and the main person in a story, someone whom we should look up to. Perhaps we could just coin a word like, er.., 'warrior-god' ??

About 'Held', I'm presuming we'd be looking for a modern word along the lines of ' Heleth' or 'Halth' , maybe it clinked too much like the word 'health' and led to Middle English befuddling. I'm sure other words died a death when English went into 300yrs of freefall following the Norman Overthrowing.

@jayles: "What happened to "Held"?"

Why do you ask? ;-)

HELD < MHG helt < OHG Helid > O.E. hæleþ(as), hæle (also hæl, hælþs, hælða) "man, warrior, hero"; See O. Sax. helið

There is no word in latter-day English that I know of that goes back to O.E. hæleþ. This word was mainly a poetic word (used a lot as a play on words), and was almost always one of two or more words of a word group with the same letter, that was said over and over again so as to make a steady beat. In poetry, it was sometimes meant to mean "Christian Warrior".

Why Norwegian is the easiest language for English speakers to learn

http://www.pagef30.com/2008/08/why-norwegian-is-easiest-language-for.html

Cool web-writ that fits in well here, I think.

http://wishydig.blogspot.com/2006/09/old-english-redux.html

I know that min is a great Anglo-word but it has been overshadowed and swallowed up by the Latin min+ words. I tripped over minwhile (also mint-while) in ME meaning a moment/instant ... sure enuff, the etym is given as likely min from Latin minute. Min from AS makes more wit as a "small or slight" while rather than as a "minute" while. Then I found mindom (also MinDom) meaning minimum domain. Anyway, I'm calling both minwhile and mindom out for Anglish noting!

What should be taught in schools is OE ... say about the 7th or 8th grades (12 -13 yo kids) for a year ... maybe another year of ME ... and then let them go on to a tung of their choice. Turn these kids loose with a bunch of OE words and sooner or later yu'll find them being noted again!

Ængelfolc: Oh and I forgot to remark on childrens' comic papers in the UK. They often re-use stuff that was written just after WWII and show German troops as heartless thugs, and of course British troops as heroes; but in the end I think they are answerable for a lot of (type-) ilk-casting and fore-deeming in the minds of thoughtless teenagers and grown-ups.
What happened to "Held"?

Ængelfolc: I think the gainst-German feeling in the UK just stems from snobbery and scholarliness. In grammar schools French and Latin were a must, German just an add-on, Greek too, although I only learnt a smattering of Koine. German was disliked for a while after WWII which is understandable - I remember working for a firm in the sixties which had a 'don't buy German' guideline (and no bacon sandwiches either!). This has long gone but the snobbery lives on.

@AnWulf:

OE mindom can be taken as a true Ænglisc (Germanic) word. The Latin folks might say that it is a blended word (L-Eng), but I can show it is not.

OE minn "small, slight, low", min "slight", mins, minsian "to diminish" < P.Gmc. *min-, *minns, *minnista-, *minniz (adj. minniz-a, gen. minniz-ins) "less, small, young"; akin to ON minni "small(er)"; Gothic minniza "younger", mins, minznan "to be come less, diminish"; Old Saxon minsōn “to make less, make smaller”; German minder "less, lower", mindest "minimum, least; Eng. mince (< Frankish *minsto, *minnisto < *min, *minn “small, less”) > L. minor, minute, minus, minutia, minimum, minister. Also shared with Celtic *min- "reduce, diminish"; Russian маленький "small"; Polish mniej "less", mniejszy "smaller", among others.

We all know (-)dōm "judgement, state, condition, authority, jurisdiction" < P.Gmc.*dōmaz, whence Latin borrowed it for words like statutum (-tum = dōm).

OE mindom is a true Teutonic word.

Here's a good one that should be ground for a fight between Anglo-root folks and Latin-root folks ... OE mindom = smallness from min (small) + -dom. NE mindom = minimum domain. So if one notes OE mindom for minimum (which I did here: http://allpoetry.com/story/9466679-The_Reluctants__SciFi__-_Prolog-by-AnWulf) who gets the credit for the word ... OE or Latin?

"Teutonic is considered somewhat of a dirty..."

I think this may be a whyfor England has a bunch of "scholars" that are latter-day Celtic flag waivers; they seem to addle, and greatly downplay, England's Teutonicness at every bend. This might also be grounds for why there has been a lot of borrowing from French and Latin after 1500, markedly so in the now.

Sprache ist der Träger der Kultur!

I see no problem re-strengthening and re-backing our tongue with closer attention being paid to our Teutonic cousins. Unfortunately, Teutonic is considered somewhat of a dirty word since the whole Nazi lunacy. But scholars and the media are quick to forget, our other teutonic cousins suffered under the hands of the Germans, countries whose economies and cultures were totally innocent of the goings-on of '33 - '45. Yet somehow, their teutonicness gets overlook and supressed by their accidental Germanic heritage. Britain gets a hell of a lot of direct and indirect business via Holland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark Belgium, Luxembourg... would it be so painful to give them some respect and bring them closer to our linguistic home?

I meant, "I think teaching born English speakers [Teutonic tongues] is one of the keys..."

I think teaching born English speakers is one of the keys to keeping and further the "Teutonicness" of the English tongue. I always found it rather odd that the "hallowed Halls of Learning" pushed the learning of Romance tongues (French, Spanish) and Latin.

Now, it's Asian tongues. All of this is said with the understanding that learning these tongues can be good for business and politics; that is not lost on me.

@Aegelfolc,

That would make good onget. For any onefoldly Thetch tongue (Dutch, Swedish) would be like an unlocking key for the other more heavy-going ones (German, Icelandic).

Lots of Dutch words in English, even Dutch words that came to English through French. I think it good for born English speakers to also learn Dutch, or any of the kin Germanic tongues.

Nederlands, wat voor een heel erg leuke taal. Ik zou 't heel geweldig vinden, als elk kind de taal kan leren. Misschien niet alleen 'kunnen' toch even ' moeten' !

@Jayles: "A great shame it was not taken up in Bayern."

Why? Kun je Nederlands spreken? Mijn Nederlandse taal is een beetje roestig.

Aegelfolc: I do remember reading Frisian poetry at skool and thinking how easy it was compared to real German, closer than modern Dutch. A great shame it was not taken up in Bayern. Not sure which is Dutch and which Frisian on this site:
http://www.tseadbruinja.nl/

Oldest written Germanic likely seems to be from about 300 BC. It is found on the Negau-B helmet, and is written with runestaves of some kind (maybe Etruscan/ North-Italic). It reads:

Harigasti teiwai < either "...to the god Harogast (Odin), or "Harigast (Odin) and Teiwaz (Tyr)". Also, maybe, "made by Harigast".

How cool is that! This is many, many years earlier than Wulfilas' Codex Argenteus; about 650 years, or so, earlier!