He and I, me and him
I know that the proper order for a nominative series of nouns including the speaker is “John and I,” but what about for the objective? “Mrs. Smith taught me and John,” or, “Mrs. Smith taught John and me”? The same goes for prepositions, “Mrs. Smith taught chemistry to me and John,” vs. “Mrs. Smith taught chemistry to John and me.”
Also, does whether one uses the objective pronoun or the reflexive pronoun affect the order? “I taught John and myself,” vs, “I taught myself and John.”
Warsaw Will
December 3, 2012, 2:25am
Hi Jaxagirl - Just to defend the Queen, not that I'm a great monarchist, she does in fact use "My husband and I" absolutely correctly, as she always uses it in subject position in full sentences. Whether she says "Me and Phil are off to the races" when she's at home, I've no idea, but it would be a bit too informal for her TV addresses. The Brynne Edelsten example is interesting (and different from the Queen's), the problem being that is not a full sentence. Should we read it as short for "(This is) Geoff and I attending a gala", in which case I think it's fine, if a bit formal; or is it really "(This is a picture of) Geoff and I attending a gala", in which case "me" is more correct? I think you could argue either way.
Incidentally, it is precisely because the Queen says "My husband and I", that Brits often try to avoid similar expressions. Most of don't want to sound like the Queen. Or Hugh Grant, for that matter. I think that's also a reason that many of us try and avoid using the pronoun "one", as it is also associated with the royal family and the upper classes - although they actually use it to mean "I"or "we", rather than "you". - "One has kedgeree for breakfast and one's butler brings in the newspaper, ironed of course. Then one goes for a walk with one's corgis in one's garden."
But I go along with your main drift, and what I try and argue for in this forum is the use of natural English, rather than getting your knickers in a twist over archaic and dubious 'rules' being broken. I also agree with you that each of us should be able to make up our own minds what we say. If people don't like a word or expression etc that's in general use, it's easy enough, don't use it. But there's no need to criticise others for it.
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Jaxagirl
December 2, 2012, 8:07pm
@Warsaw Will - Hello from Australia (English ancestry). Thank you for your feedback. Maybe my comment should go in the 'Pet Peeves' category under inappropriate usage of the word 'myself' when used in referring to two people, one of which is myself/me or I even?! - Dare I use the abbreviation 'Lol' or ;).
I do appreciate your comments & what you are saying about pedants, regarding formalism and precision. As mentioned previously, I don't really mind in the slightest what is 'proper' - only what I believe sounds nice when I speak at the time. That's just me & I feel everyone is entitled to say what they say, however they say it. I've watched Episodes of American Jewelry and Loan | Pawn Detroit (we spell it Jewellery), where I shudder at the elocution of some of the people on the show, but once again each to their own. If one has heard me in a past conversation, stating the word 'myself', no matter how pedantic they were, have not battered an eyelid (or were too polite to say anything/or felt it inappropriate to do so). I've not encountered it so far. I would like to point out to any future comments regarding my post, whether right or wrong (obviously wrong), it was not to advise, - merely to voice what I personally say. I'd also like to hear someone approach the Queen of England if they ever see her & tell her that her "My husband & I" is incorrect to some. Brynne Edelsten was recently berated for titling one of her photos, 'Geoff & I attending a gala' when someone stated it should have been Geoff & me! I think there are more important things going on in the world to be concerned over than who says what how. (Insert smiley face here).
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Warsaw Will
December 2, 2012, 4:47am
@Jaxagirl - Thanks for adding a word to my vocabulary. I take it you're Australian. I would use 2 (neutral) or 3 (informal), depending on the occasion. It doesn't bother me particularly, but a lot of people might take exception to your use of "myself" in 1, as there is no need for a reflexive or emphatic pronoun here. Just thought I'd get it in before the pedants arrive.
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Jaxagirl
November 30, 2012, 9:19am
All grammar, nouns, pronouns, verbs etc. aside, this is what I say:
1)That included John & myself on the list.
2)John and I were/are on the list.
3)Me and John were/are on the list.
I may sound like a bit of a prude, but prefer not to use the ME (No.3) so much, as I feel as though it sounds a little ocker/slang.
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tsm420
May 28, 2012, 10:16pm
In either case, We would then,Have to analyze The history of between the two.( UK ) U.S.
where as grammar has much to do with both History and geography,I am an American Myself currently living in Mainland china. I get these responses at times
Whether you are using contemporary,traditionally or Old English. We must understand the following and how or what may seem accurate.Who and Why factor.
Who claims that in either case were right? e.g Him and I, He and I, Me and and Him, etc.
While referring ( others ) before yourself may claim respect.......
How ever it may also include selfishness at the same time or claiming one to be more inferior.
These grammatical flaws are just the basics,When believing or studying the behavior of both sides and how to use it wisely,Thus in sure of this theory is how you perceive it.
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porsche
February 3, 2011, 3:44am
Actually, whether certain punctuation goes inside or outside quotation marks is a subject of much debate. This is also one of those things that's different between American and UK English (American inside, and UK outside). Funny though, I was taught to punctuate outside the quotation marks and I'm American.
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alant
February 3, 2011, 1:55am
Myself is a reflexive pronoun, as are himself, herself, and themselves. They are to be used when the object refers back (reflexively) to the subject. If you're using a -self in the object, and the my/him/her/them to which you attached the -self is NOT the subject, then you're using it wrong. People who use -self's superfluously come across to me as asinine and haughty, like they're trying to sound like they're speaking particularly properly. It's one think to speak with impeccable grammar and syntax; it's another to SOUND like you're TRYING to speak that way.
Punctuation always goes inside the quotation marks, except for maybe long dashes:
Max hated church--he was quoted as a youth as saying, "Church is for the devil,"--so everyone from his hometown was surprised when he matriculated to seminary.
What sounds correct isn't always correct. And being rich doesn't make you or your parents speak better English, but I'm glad you mingle with the lesser peoples.
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annwexler
February 3, 2011, 12:55am
Isn't it correct to say "Mrs. Smith taught John and me", not "myself"? Isn't "myself" unnecessary? You wouldn't say "she taught myself", you'd say "she taught me".
I am going INSANE these days hearing people say "between you and I" and "give it to John and I". How can something so basic to English grammar go completely out the window?
And I have a thing about putting the punctuation outside of quotation marks when it's not part of the quote. Am I wrong? I thought that's how I was taught.
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moore333
November 3, 2010, 11:03pm
Being well-spoken conveys a sense of confidence, it is nice to know that it is still appreciated in cyber-space. Thank you for attending to my sensibilities.
Jason
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shaunc
August 9, 2010, 7:31pm
Re: “Mrs. Smith taught me and John” Personally, I would say that Mrs. Smith taught John and myself. I have always thought that English has a rhythm and you say what sounds correct!
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lyterk
August 2, 2010, 2:09am
I think that changing the pronoun form from subjective to objective doesn't change the inherent spirit of politeness of pronoun order- I/me always comes last, and the 'guest' (anyone not in the first person) goes first in the sentence order, to designate respect.
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afihai
July 24, 2010, 12:27am
Him and I, him and Me. The first sounds a little closer to my heart, prolly bcuz i grew up with upperclass parents. But I keep a good amount of mid and lower class company, so my english gets pretty balanced. I myself don't really care, it just angers me when people say "him and I". I'm thinking no, you're a jerk, I'm not even gonna bother talkin to ya.
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goofy
July 23, 2010, 2:57pm
I don't think there is a proper order. I've heard some people say that you should put "I/me" last to be polite, but that has nothing to do with grammar.
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