and so...

@Hal121205 - If you're so concerned about extraneous language, why don't you just "do" a web search, like the rest of us? And why should you be so concerned to find a definitive answer? If you don't like it, you don't like it, end of. But lay off the rest of us - don't do this, don't do that! I mean, really!

@patty-c - "We shouldn't use 'and so' ". What on earth rule says that?

There's nothing wrong with "and so", unless it's repeated a lot; but that goes for any expression. And it wasn't only good enough for Pepys, as njtt says, but for a lot of others, beside.

- 'Next Boy!' said Alice, passing on to Tweedledee, though she felt quite certain he would only shout out 'Contrariwise!' and so he did. (Through the Looking Glass, by Lewis Carroll)

- He had never confided in them or shared his hopes or feelings and so they saw no marked change in his behavior - (E.L.Doctorow, Ragtime)

- Which thing when Judas perceived, he went forth to meet him, and so he smote him, and slew him - 1 Maccabees 3 (among many examples from the King James Bible)

MWDEU - "Bierce 1909 objected to 'and so, but modern books generally ignore it. It is, of course, in perfectly good use'"
http://books.google.com/books?id=2yJusP0vrdgC&a...

"And so it goes" (I'm thinking KV rather than BJ).

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I've heard the phrase 'and so' so much lately it's bothering me quite a bit. I performed a Web search for the term and I am unable to find anything that states definitively that it is used incorrectly in most cases. Visual Thesaurus treats it as a legitimate term, but I think it is grossly overused. People often use "and so" when all they really need is "so."

I think in most cases the "and" in phrases like "and then" and "and so" is extraneous. "So" is synonymous with "thus," "therefore," "indeed," and "then." In most cases, it is more appropriate to leave the "and" off of words like this. Sentences using these words often go like this: "Such and such happened or is true; so, this follows." There is no "and" necessary to make that a complete thought. Don't use "and so" in these cases.

Creative writing, on the other hand, is a different animal, well-known for breaking all the rules and offending sensibilities. :-)

I encourage you to read patty-c's post, above, also.

Down with "and so!" (in most cases - Travis's usage example is fine, imho)

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haha i have the same repeating certain words(but) in a 'conversation' problem
it's jus that instead of "and so"
i use the words "You_Know" or "Like-You-Know"
like alot... no matter how hard I try and it also happens when I get nervous or especially when i've got nothing to say xD

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"And so". Sounds like poetry and historical play like stuff that the modern world lost/forgot when video games were invented. My guess would be like this:

My will is bent and broken, and so is lost.

And so seems to be useful when one is combining two sentences that lead to one sentence, bridging two subjects of whatever into one sentence. "And so" is a tough one to figure out, especially in this day in age where we rather go to Wal-Mart to buy a fish instead of going out on a lake and catch on.

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Olen, you made that rule up out of thin air. Also, your "therefore" needs to be preceded by a semicolon, for "therefore" is not a coordinating conjunction; rather, it's a type of adverb.

But we shouldn't use "and so." Just use "so" alone; it's a coordinating conjunction. A comma precedes it, but none follows it - just like other coordinating conjunctions - and it's one of the c.c.'s that can begin a sentence, though many teachers think it can't.

It's also quite a good word, don't you think?

Using "therefore" and "thus" repetitively is more clunky and in my opinion a greater sin than using "so" repetitively.

"Tic" not "tick." Agreed.

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Olen: "There is no correct use of "and so" in Standard American English."

Absolute nonsense. If "and so to bed" was good enough for Peyps, it is good enough for you (and other Americans. All the examples you give of uses of "and so" are perfectly correct (except for some punctuation errors) and can be used in formal English. As Dyske says, this is a purely stylistic issue.

However, lef, the habit you have developed is a tic, not a "tick".

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There is no correct use of "and so" in Standard American English. Using "and so" may be colloquial, or an empty phrase that adds no value to an idea.

Examples

Colloquial "and so"
Bob enjoyed the movie and so did Helen.
Revised
Bob and Helen enjoyed the movie.

Empty phrase
Heat causes a physical change in protein structure, and so, egg whites harden when cooked.
Revised
Heat causes a physical change in protein structure, therefore, egg whites harden when cooked.
More concise
Egg whites harden when cooked because heat causes a physical change in protein structure.

To be more concise, try thinking 'if - then', 'if - else', or 'while - occurs' instead of 'if - then - so'.

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And so?

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It is certainly not a grammatical issue; it's a stylistic issue, SO, it's not wrong. It just does not sound good when you repeat any word over and over.

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Thanks so much Dyske. Is the "and so" so horrible?

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I have the same exact problem! If I write without paying conscious attention to using "so", I end up with a whole bunch of them. So, I have to always read through my text specifically to revise my usage of "so". I think I naturally think this way. That is, my mind always structures thoughts into "if - then - so", or that I only have that type of thoughts. Even when I replace "so" with "therefore", "thus", etc., they get quite repetitive also. I think this is just how some people's brains are.

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